Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt19.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 949KB

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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A breath of fresh air (Re: Hi There)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 22:43:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]>
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> I have yet, and I have investigated many reports, to
> come up with any information that IS without doubt open to
> criticism.  Why?  Because no one has tangible proof.  They have
> a friend of a friend, or they know something, or they have
> brought forward a fantastic hypothesis that they see as
> fact, but which others can't verify.
>
> I'll stay in this mess only because it is interesting.  But,
> I look for the day that someone brings me in a piece of some-
> thing, or even a being from another planet who can without
> criticism show that this phenomena is real.

    This is the best example of open-mindedness and honesty I have yet seen in
this group.  I don't know about others, but it's a relief for me to see an
active investigator who is not religiously attatched to the concept of UFOs.
I'm sure the whole field would enjoy a higher standing in the scientific
community were this attitude more prevalent.  I think the skeptical side of
this issue could also learn from this statement.  If we are truly open-minded
we should be equally willing to look and listen in order to accurately sift
out the truth and be honestly prepared to welcome evidence that stands up to
the fiercest scruitiny.  Thanks Dale.
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From: [e-mail] (Jerry Freter)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.sex,alt.angst
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <d4adl-#@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: 26 Oct 91 00:59:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque NM
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
>> >
>> >     Also, are any of our human activities (nuclear reactors, nuclear bomb
>> >tests, computer monitors) emitting Lambda radiation and if so how do we
>> >correct it?
>>
>> 1)  Kill your TV.  I suggest defenestration.  Make a tape of that fun
>>     act and then throw the TAPE out the window too!
>
>     Actually I did this with a number of TV's.  Took one old Zenith that was
>always a headache out on the patio, turned it upside down, plugged it into a
>long extension cord and turned it on.  Hosed it down while operating.  Who
>says water and electricity don't mix?  Another ancient intermittant RCA got
>accidentally dropped down two flights of stairs when I moved out of an
>apartment (concrete stairs).  But I must keep my present television intact for
>watching re-runs of My Favorite Martian and Star Trek (old and new).

First off, Lambda radiation doesn't exist except within certain VERY high
energy experimental devices. Lambda particles (Lambdons) are also extremely
unstable, I don't have my refs. handy but if I remember, the mean life is on
the order of 10^-10 seconds.

As for potential radiation from monitors, I wouldn't worry about it that much.
The electrons that might be given off by the screen would barely be able to
go one foot from the screen before being stopped by the air. A good pair of
eyeglasses would stop them no matter how close you get. The X-rays that
would be given off by the electrons are very low energy (about 10-30 kev)
compared to all the gamma-ray radiation that you get from eating a banana
(yes, Approximately 10% of the Potassium in the Earth is radioactive), and
insignificant compared to the radiation damage that one cigarette does to
your lungs. (Tobacco has a very high affinity for Thorium--an alpha emitting
element-- that does SERIOUS damage to living tissue it encounters. In fact,
I'd be willing to bet that the lung cancer is due to alpha damage of lung
tissue, not the tar and junk).


ObSEX: The Thomas/Senate Confirmation Hearings

--
The opinions expressed herein do not necesssarily reflect the policy of anyone
who gives a sh*t.
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From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air (Re: Hi There)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 02:54:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> you write:
>
>    This is the best example of open-mindedness and honesty I have yet seen in
>this group.  I don't know about others, but it's a relief for me to see an
>active investigator who is not religiously attatched to the concept of UFOs.
>I'm sure the whole field would enjoy a higher standing in the scientific
>community were this attitude more prevalent.  I think the skeptical side of
etc. ...

Hi.  You can count me in your camp as well.
I think it's interesting and fun but I have deep reservations about its
authenticity.

I recently attended an interesting seminar by a couple of local women
who had gone to England and observed the circle phenomenon for themselves.
They talked with many of the people who are active in the field and obtained
some excellent pictures and information.

They did a good job of presenting it -- one of them (who is a nurse)
did most of the talking and spoke mainly in factual and scientific terms.
While they had their beliefs (extraterrestrial origin) they never came right
out and said it  and all in all weren't too heavy handed about it.
The most they did was lead a discussion concerning what the pictograms
might mean if they were some sort of message.

Anyway, the point of all this is that there were some people in the
audience who finally spoke up and said something like "Why don't
we stop pretending and all just admit that we believe!" -- Like it
was some sort of a religion! I can't tell you how irritated that
made me feel.

There was an article in a recent issue of Science and it was
mentioned that most scientists won't have anything to do with
it because they're afraid that if their name is associated with it
it could hurt their reputations and careers.
So, I agree with you, it really is too bad that society is polarized
like this and it probably is due in large part to these extremist twits.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Summary: Lambda - - - Kill Your TV
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 02:36:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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The thread continues:
>> 1)  Kill your TV.  I suggest defenestration.  Make a tape of that fun
>>     act and then throw the TAPE out the window too!
>
>     Actually I did this with a number of TV's.

Oddly enough, this reminds me of this old TV I had.  I set it up on a box
in a public parking lot tuned to David Letterman with a little green blob
creature (this rubber puppet thing) sitting on a different box watching it..
I didn't get to stay there very long, though.. from what I'm told by about
3AM it was in the hands of the Altamonte Springs Police department.  Very
nice.. Now it'll rot *their* brains.. (as if there's really something there
for it to effect...)

There are screams outside my door.. how odd.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 05:29:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16869 alt.paranormal:3504 alt.alien.visitors:2683 talk.religion.newage:7424

[e-mail] (erin s anderson) writes:
: Ok, so science has 'bombed' in a few areas, but look what it has
: gained for the common people.  We can save lives now, because we
: studied it.  We are finding out a lot of information we didn't know a
: long time ago.  And without science, you would have never got your
: letter here on the net.

Oh yes, like destroying the rivers, destroying the oceans, destroying
the forests, destroying the fields, destrying the air, destroying the
earth, destroying the humans. What we have gotten is a lot of
destruction. That was before also, but science have enabled us to
enhance this process many powers of times.
Great accomplishment.

Science is not bad, it is the all materialistic philosophy which is
bad. The application of the science. The lack of guidelines for science.

: But as for science and religion, religion has not really pointed out a
: ton of fact.  Actually, no more has been given to us through religion
: than we have in science.  Religion DOES tell us to read the Bible.

Material Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.  It is two
completely different subjects. They can actually go hand in hand.
Material science tells us HOW, spiritual science says WHY. The
problems of today is the lack of spiritual science, and we have gotten
a situation of "if it can be done - do it", and noone askes WHY it
should not be done, or WHERE it leads to.

The western world is blind, cannot see. It applies its material
knowledge on anything, but cannot see the result. The science of God
will give our society eyes, and we will actually see things as they
are. That will be the success of our culture.

Do we really need aliens from other planets to come to tell us to open
our eyes? If they have so advanced technology, why don't they share it
with us? Maybe because we are blind and foolish, and would just use
it for our own destruction.

If they would tell us how reality is really constructed, we would
immediately reject it, because it is not backed up by our "science".

-- Per Lindqvist
--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 05:52:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (James W. Meritt) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
: }Now, there is no scientific indication whatsoever that nothing can do
: }anything, so is it not more logical that someone did something?
: }
: }There is also not scientific indication whatsoever that anything can
: }appear out of nothing.
:
: Boy, are you in for a bad suprise if you ever look at QM & virtual
: particles & Hawkins radiation and find out that when you make a
: "scientific indication" statement that you are 100% wrong.

There is always something there for it to appear from. Either energy,
mass, or space. (Yes, I know that these things are convertible)
Just understand that vaccum is not "nothing". There is a fabric of
space throughout the whole universe. That is also a kind of matter.
Just wait a few years, and your scientists will have figured that one
out also.

The original "nothingness" is really nothing. No energy, no particles,
no space, no time, no nothing. It is like a scientific theory
consisting of zero number of formulas.  Nothing can appear from that,
because there is nothing from which it can appear. Not even the
laws of physics exist in nothingness.
--
Per Lindqvist

Internet: [e-mail]   Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332
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From: [e-mail] (David Hahn....Crazy Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Personal accounts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 05:55:52 GMT
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Originator: [e-mail]

Has anyone actually had any personal accounts of UFO's. Be it something
you saw or happened....I would like to hear them, so post them if ya
got the time.


              Thanks...David Hahn




--
*******************************************************************************
           David James Hahn /\/\/\/\/[e-mail]/\/\/\/\/\
.........."It's not easy being good in a world that's gone to hell"...........
*******************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kathy and Channeling UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 16:03:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...

I see your point, Julian.  I guess I've been burned so often that I tend
to react in a knee jerk response now.  I'll watch myself more closely now.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
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From: [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fragments: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 17:34:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 25 Oct 91 03:17:38 GMT


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (T. Gaetz) writes:

   In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik F. Andersen) writes:

   >  Interesting enough, some time ago I read about a tribe of indians
   >living in central-america that have a *written* record of everything
   >that had happend to the tribe for the last 15000 years!
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^
   >  They talk of catastrophes for some 12000 years ago, very
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^
   >similar to the ones described above. They were caused by
   >a war between two races of gods (aliens) living on the earth then;
   >the war supposedly killed everything on the planet Venus. The tribe
   >survived because they hid in caves deep beneath the earth.

   Do you have any references for this?  How were these records
   and the events dated - i.e. how can it be determined that the
   catastrophes were really 12000 years ago rather than, say, 1500 years
   ago?  What language are they in?

   I am highly skeptical of claims of _written_ records extending over
   15000 years.
   --
   Terry Gaetz   --   [e-mail]

  Of course you are skeptical, so am I. But I just happened
to find this book at the library, and thought it was
very interesting. I will tell you what the book told me:
  In the 1970's the chief of an indian tribe wanted to warne the
white people against, what they were doing to nature. The name of
this person was Tatunca Nara, chief of the Ugha Mongalala's. He
told part of the story of the Ugha Mongalala's, which has now
been published in a book called "The Chronicle of Akakor"
(Akakor means "The Second Fortress"). I cannot remember who
wrote the book, but it was in Danish.

  "The Chronicle of Akakor" tells us, that the gods taught the
indians how to write. Also they were taught agriculture and
astronomy (!!) To my knowledge, no one has seen this
written record other than the indians (their priests). However
there are examples of their writing (very simplified). I have
compared it to many writings of the central-america, but cannot make
anything of it. Few parts of his story can be verified - but only
more recent events. One interesting part is, that about 580 AC
they joined forces with Gothics - this could be the same one's
that were defeated in Napoli (Italy) around 570 AC and mysteriously
dissappered from history! As you may know, the gothics were amongst
the best sailors at the time.

  No claims are being made - only statements from a book, and a
little research.

Erik F. Andersen, Denmark






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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 14:05:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
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The other day I received a mailing from a local prayer group
combined with people who have visited Medjugorje and others
who pray the rosary.

My eye caught one of the messages from the Marian apparition to
the children (people on this planet):

"Our world has grown cold from lack of love."

I wouldn't be one bit surprised is this is also one of the messages
from the higher intelligences (i.e., spiritual hierarchy).

Lack of love to me, translates a cold heart.  I sure have seen plenty
of them here on this planet.

Re: "knee jerk responses" (Mary Stanley):  I do not have attachment
whether people believe or disbelieve me.  I have found, however,
a number of people who get angry and even ridiculing of a person
who refuses to be caught or enmeshed into a lot of intellectual
arguments.  Oftentimes people who are not equipped to deal with
this type of energy (i.e., openness, opening the heart, becoming
vulnerable and open to higher truth, etc) will start to get derogatory
and even insulting.

Being an empath and feeler, all I can say (again) is that each person
must find his own inner truth.  Being sarcastic and nasty to another
that doesn't speak the same language as you does not prove any thing
to any body....it only reveals a person's own limitations.

The openness of mind is one thing I feel higher intelligences and
spiritual hierarchy look for in a being.  I suspect strongly that
they already know enough of spiritual law to not bother to penetrate
a closed mind that sits there and wants proof served to it on a silver
platter.  It does not work this way.

I know ...I know...I have been told before...50% of the people will
like the work I do, and 50% will not (the old yin yang).

What are you skeptics really looking for?  My bet is:  your own
immortality.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: X the bodydigger is coming
Keywords: coming
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 03:46:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Santa Claus) writes:

> X the bodydigger is coming back.....

        And I haven't a THING to wear...

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
[e-mail]                     "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 16:17:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
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  Scientists think they are holier than thou.

  People who feel inferior think that others feel superior.


  Scientists think they are holier than thou.....  This is the kind of
thinking that gives uneducated jerks a bad name. The next time you go to
turn on electric lights, dont. Dont turn on the TV. Dont use computers,
or plumbing or centralized airconditioning and heating. Go out into the
desert and live off the land the way our ancestors did. Get diseases and
die young the way they did in the good old days.

  Science hasn't destroyed anything. The human race's mad rush for progress
and a better way of life is leaving a tattered planet in its wake. People
who want to see their children grow up free of disease and pain and lead
comfortable lives are destroying the environment. The energy we used to
build these computers and run them is destroying the environment.

 Entropy is everywhere and it is gaining on us. Run and HIDE for god sakes!


  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
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From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 16:56:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> What are you skeptics really looking for?  My bet is:  your own
> immortality.

    Some people who call themselves skeptics are only looking for ways to
puncture the beliefs of others.  These are people who seem to have a very
limited and pessimistic view of the value of humanity.  Kathy, you seem to
think that anyone who questions you or challenges you falls into this
catagory.  Skepticism is a tool that keeps a clear-minded person from getting
caught up in the brambles of every doctrine of the little messiahs who seem to
appear almost daily.  Everyone who is looking for truth should be labeled a
skeptic.  It is a very sad thing when a person crosses from open-minded
skepticism into the darkness of blind cynicism but it is even worse to see
someone loose the power to think critically and swallow up any form of
teaching that flatters them.  Skeptimism is the first step toward
investigating truth, not the alternate route.  No matter how much you talk
around it, the fact stands that the things have been discussed here (visitors
from other worlds, telepathic communication) should be objectivly obvious
before anyone appends them to their belief system.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 16:43:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>The western world is blind, cannot see. It applies its material
>knowledge on anything, but cannot see the result. The science of God
>will give our society eyes, and we will actually see things as they
>are. That will be the success of our culture.

Actually, it's religion which has historically said (and still does say):  "Do
this because some authority (the church, claiming to be acting on the orders of
God) says to do it.  You don't have to know why, and you certainly don't have
to understand how things work in detail, nor be able to predict the
consequences.  God said to do it, and that's reason enough."  When you have a
society whose members have been brought up to believe that dogma is sufficient
unto itself, then you can expect that society to start treating scientists and
technocrats as priests, not bothering either to question their pronouncements
nor to take the trouble to understand enough of science to make informed
decisions for themselves.  Don't blame the scientists for the short-sightedness
of our society;  it's the priests (generic term, including religious and
quasi-religious authorities even in organizations which claim not to have
priests) that have indoctrinated the society into behaving like sheep.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Summary: Leaders of States and Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 01:12:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> a) Why they don't land in a park and tell us all about themselves
> if they're so keen to contact us with vital messages.
> b) Why they keep on contacting housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics
> etc.  Again, if their message is SO important they would surely contact
> a leader of state.  There must be some government official, somewhere
> who is capable of receiving them.

     Perhaps alien life that is more intelligent would realize that
housewifes, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics are both likely to be more
reasonable and credible than "leaders of state" aka politicians.

     If you talk to politicians you know that all they are going to be
interested in is how can I use your technology or whatever you have to offer
to benefit me by more effectively screwing the rest of mankind which is the
only thing polticians, aka leaders of state, are good at.

     Could be that the aliens would rather share their knowledge with the
vast majority of humans that would make good use of it rather than a small
minority that would do harm with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 18:22:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

Kellan Hatch speaks about skepticism, belief systems, etc:

Kellan:  I hear what you are saying.  A little bit of healthy
skepticism is sometimes needed, without a doubt.  But I would
say this to you:  sometimes things happen and then they aren't
"appended" to one's "belief system"...rather, it is more, perhaps,
a matter of a person having a direct experiential experience...when
this happens, it be-comes knowing or knowledge, or be-comes part
of that person's be-ingness.

I have one friend who has been VERY skeptical over the number of
years that I have known him.  Yet I see that because of certain
happenings/experiences (including a miracle in his own life) he
is becoming less and less cynical/skeptical and 'more open' to
finding out about things that his belief system is not so sure about
anymore, etc.

Different strokes for different folks.  I honor your path, Kellan.
I hope you honor mine, but even if you don't, it really doesn't
make all that much difference.  Truth can be relative and absolute,
and also, even contradictory, at times.  I guess it all depends on
where you're coming from (or where you're going :-)  ).

But I do feel a sense of feeling of what those people feel who
have experienced abductions, etc. and just simply stop talking
about their experiences ..because they have been made fun of
or scoffed at.  Each person will have experiences unique to himself
(man himself is the path).  The problem (as I see it) is when someone
attempts to share soemthing of his own path, and he meets with the
scoffers...it is at that point when silence is sometimes the best
approach ...and many do adopt this attitude in matters such as these.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uvaarpa!murdoch!turing!dand
From: [e-mail] (Dan Duncan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.bizarre,alt.sex,alt.angst
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Keywords: Lambda
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 18:22:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d4adl-#@lynx.unm.edu>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
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In article <d4adl-#@lynx.unm.edu> [e-mail] (Jerry Freter) writes:
>>> 1)  Kill your TV.  I suggest defenestration.  Make a tape of that fun
>>>     act and then throw the TAPE out the window too!
>
>First off, Lambda radiation doesn't exist except within certain VERY high
>
>As for potential radiation from monitors, I wouldn't worry about it that much.
>--
>The opinions expressed herein do not necesssarily reflect the policy of anyone
>who gives a sh*t.

...or who has the sense to recognize a JOKE!
(Or kill me)

-DanD

--
%-------------------------------|--------------------------------------------%
% [e-mail]  |   "I understand your concern.              %
% [e-mail]            |      Request Denied."  -Data               %
%-------------------------------|--------------------------------------------%
%    I am entitled to my opinion.   UVA is not.   Your mileage may vary.     %
%----------------------------------------------------------------------------%
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!seunet!kullmar!pkmab!ske
From: [e-mail] (Kristoffer Eriksson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Oct 91 21:21:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Peridot Konsult i Mellansverige AB, Oerebro, Sweden
Lines: 11
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Material science tells us HOW, spiritual science says WHY.

Would you care to explain just what "spiritual science" is?

Can you give some examples of "WHY"s that it has answered?

--
Kristoffer Eriksson, Peridot Konsult AB, Hagagatan 6, S-703 40 Oerebro, Sweden
Phone: [phone]  !  e-mail: [e-mail]
Fax:   [phone]  !  or ...!{uunet,mcsun}!mail.swip.net!kullmar!pkmab!ske
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!mv!ctedge!djk
From: [e-mail] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Those underground objects in Utah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 14:51:45 GMT
Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering, Nashua, NH
Lines: 13

Hi: Has anyone heard any more on those strange objects that were found
during a dig at a toxic waste dump in Ogden Utah? Have not heard any
more on that for weeks.

I am interested because I may be passing through that area in a few
weeks, and would like to stop by and take a look!

-djk

---
Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT - POB 7007, Nashua NH USA 03060-7007
[e-mail]  ...!DecVax!Mv!CtEdge!Djk  [e-mail]
The Cutting Edge: [phone] V.32 24 hrs. 'for TRUE hackers'
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 04:36:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 30
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Sat, 26 Oct 1991 18:22:52 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> I have one friend who has been VERY skeptical over the number of
> years that I have known him.  Yet I see that because of certain
> happenings/experiences (including a miracle in his own life) he
> is becoming less and less cynical/skeptical and 'more open' to
> finding out about things that his belief system is not so sure about
> anymore, etc.

    There's no question that attitudes can change and I'm not saying that it's
necessarily unhealthy to maintain beliefs.  For many people that's what gets
them from one day to the next. I'm talking about matters that make claims of
being scientific in nature.

> Truth can be relative and absolute, > and also, even contradictory, at
times.  I guess it all depends on > where you're coming from (or where you're
going :-)  ).

    I can't agree with you there.  To return to the topic of discussion in
this group, either there are alien spacecraft visiting this planet or there
are not. This cannot be a subjective matter. If it's true for you, then it has
to be just as true for me.  It's either happening or not.  If you choose to
believe it, that's fine with me.  If you expect me to, you'll have to wait
until I've seen better evidence.  And that goes for our original argument
about telepathy.  When I can see a message clearly sent from one mind to
another I will be ready to believe.  If you or anyone else out there can do
this, why don't you just pop me a message sometime this week?  I know you
think I'm being stubborn and hardnosed on this issue Kathy, but would you
really respect me If I gave in that easily?  (You expect me to put a smiley
here, but I hate the damn things)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Those underground objects in Utah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 04:42:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 10
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 26 Oct 91 14:51:45 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> Hi: Has anyone heard any more on those strange objects that were found
> during a dig at a toxic waste dump in Ogden Utah? Have not heard any
> more on that for weeks.

    I live in Salt Lake City and my parents are just outside of Ogden.  I am
not aware of any mention of anything like that in the local news.  I have only
heard of it in this group.  I suggest that it's some kind of tabloid vapor.
Would the original poster of that information please reveal his/her source?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!w254zrz!hakiaahb
From: [e-mail] (Hakan Kayal)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: EG
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 14:06:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: w254zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de



There is an article in "INTERAVIA" (mai/1956, Page 373) about "Electro-Gravitation".

The claim of this article is that Towsend T. Brown is experimenting
on a propulsion system which enabled the first prototype of a flight
model (An Aluminum Disk about 10 cm diameter) to move with a speed of about 19 km/h.
The energy source of the propulsion is simply very hihgh direct voltage.
Towsend T. Brown's assumption is that the gravitation field can be
influenced localy with strong electromagnetic fields. It is further
claimed that humans for example beeing in such a fligtmodel with this
propulsion system would not be forced by accleration.

In the year 56, this seems to be a very interresting subject also for
several companys, which tryed to make money with it. But altough the
article in INTERAVIA seems to be so hopefull I didn't new anything
about it by now.

Does somebody now what happened to that? (Not what might have happened !)

H A K A N   K A Y A L
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!samsung!usc!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ethan
From: [e-mail] (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Summary: picky definitions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 15:11:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts) writes:
>
> What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
>
> Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?

That's not being picky.  Thermonuclear does *not* mean nuclear.  Period.
Full stop.

Of course, it is irrelevant to the inhabitants of those cities in 1945,
but I suspect the point had more to do with the original poster's
understanding of science, i.e. about zero.

--
"Why are they all dressed like* Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy,
 Geeks?" - Dan Quayle after   * The University of Texas at Austin
 addressing a meeting of the  * [e-mail]
 American Astronmical Society *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!news
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Info on Roswell Book
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 16:52:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: CONTEL Federal Systems
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: hick.asd.contel.com

A friend of mine just asked me if there is a new book on the Roswell incident.
I remember something about this being discussed in this mewsgroup some time
ago, but I didn't save the info.

He says there was something on Larry King about it.

Please Email info to me.

Thanks.

Steve
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!ukc!warwick!covpoly!cck.cov.ac.uk!apf042
From: [e-mail] (OZZY)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <P*8?J#~@cck.cov.ac.uk>
Date: 28 Oct 91 15:24:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Owner)
Organization: abUSENET, Coventry Polytechnic, Coventry, UK
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason
>Haines) w
>>rites:
>>>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Law
>>rence C. Foard) writes:
>>
>>>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>>>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>>>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults,
>>woomeras,
>>>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>>>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.
>>
>>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
>
>
>What????
>
>What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
>
>Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?
>
>
>+------------------------------------------+
>| This message has been brought to you by: |
>|       William G. Shotts, L.I.V.R.        |
>|   "A Catchy Slogan Should Appear Here"   |
>+------------------------------------------+
I happen to agree with William on this one,
         to avoid anyconfusion could you please elabourate on the
     term thermonuclear/nuclear?
               thank you
                     oz

--
  ==================================================================
  ====THANK YOU FOR READING THIS MAIL===============================
  == from ozzy(part time ruler of the mind of oz)===================
  == [e-mail]@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk========================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 17:07:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 16
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Sun, 27 Oct 1991 12:25:12 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> It is my feeling/intuition that there are in fact not only physical
> visitations of UFOs occurring on this planet at this time, but also
> some type of inter-dimensional consciousness ones occurring for which
> we at present time have no explanation (scientifically).  Nevertheless,
> it is still occurring (my FEELING...I have no PROOF)...I simply FEEL.

    Then I'll just have to take your word for it.

> I am a FEELER.  In healing work, I trust my feelings and instincts
> an it is amazing what can happen when I do.  And my inner feeling is
> that all types of things are happening at this time in history which
> has to do with expansion of consciousness.

    Do you by any chance charge a fee for this work?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!danwell
From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 17:50:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> The original "nothingness" is really nothing. No energy, no particles,
> no space, no time, no nothing. It is like a scientific theory
> consisting of zero number of formulas.  Nothing can appear from that,
> because there is nothing from which it can appear. Not even the
> laws of physics exist in nothingness.

   That's odd.  I've been following cosmology sine 1974 on the "informed
layman" level and never once seen the original state of the universe described
in this fashion.  Could you give a reference that makes sense by the
people working on the "everything was nothing" model you describe?

Dan
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker
From: [e-mail] (Timothy B. Reynolds)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Info on Roswell Book
Summary: list of books on UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 18:24:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Lines: 347
Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu

here's a posting I saved on UFO books....


UFO Books -- The Serious Literature
Compiled by Keith Rowell
[Please pass this list along intact to anyone who wants a copy.]


Berlitz, Charles and William L. Moore. The Roswell Incident. New
York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980. 168pp. ISBN 0-448-21199-8.  The
facts about the crash of a saucer in the summer of 1947 in New
Mexico and how the US government covered it up. See Randle and
Schmitt, too.

Bowen, Charles, ed.  The Humanoids. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969.
256pp.  LC 77-126142. Good summary of the evidence compiled from
material published in the British Flying Saucer Review magazine.

Blum, Howard.  Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for
Extraterrestrials. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990. 300pp.
ISBN 0-671-66260-0.  An important book since it is written by a
former NY Times reporter who has written two other influential
books -- one about Nazi intelligence officers brought to America
illegally after WWII and the other about the Walker spy case.
However, Blum's UFO book was apparently hastily done and, thus,
somewhat of a disappointment in the UFO research community.

Bullard, Thomas Edward.  UFO Abductions: The Measure of a
Mystery. Vol. 1: Comparative Study of Abduction Reports.
(Bloomington, IND): Fund for UFO Research, 1987. 402pp.  This
study by a PhD folklorist is must reading for anyone wanting to
understand the depth and breadth of the abduction enigma. Bullard
concludes UFO abduction stories are much too internally
consistent down to small details to be classed as traditional
folklore or typical dream material.

Butler, Brenda, Dot Street, and Jenny Randles.  Sky Crash: A
Cosmic Conspiracy. Sudbury, Great Britain: Neville Spearman,
1984. 283pp.  ISBN 85435-155-8. Review and analysis of the facts
in the British Bentwaters-Rendlesham RAFB case.

Clark, Jerome. The UFO Encyclopedia, Volume 1: UFOs in the 1980s.
Detroit, MI: Apogee Books, 1990. 234pp.  ISBN 1-55888-301-0. This
encyclopedia is mostly the author's tour de force, but still
delivers valuable information not easily available elsewhere.
Libraries should have this.

Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.).  Final Report of
the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by
the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States
Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp.  After close,
competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be
identified!  Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you
have looked through the rest of the study.  The National Academy
of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no
public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs.

Conroy, Ed.  Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of
and Commentary on Whitley Strieber's Communion. New York: Morrow,
1989. 427pp.  ISBN 0-688-08864-3.  This journalist was a boyhood
acquaintance of Strieber. When Strieber published Communion,
Conroy decided to see if his story would hold up under an
investigative journalist's scrutiny. Conroy says yes.

Curran, Douglas.  In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of
Outer Space. New York: Abbeville Press, 1985. 132pp.  ISBN
0-89659-523-4.  Interesting photographic presentation of UFO
folklore.

Deardorff, James W. Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the
True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus). Tigard, OR: Wild Flower
Press, 1990. 323pp.  ISBN 0-926524-11-9. An analysis of some of
the collateral material from the extensive Billy Meier contact
case.

Delgado, Pat and Colin Andrews.  Circular Evidence: A Detailed
Investigation of the Flattened Swirled Crops Phenomenon. London:
Bloomsbury, 1989. 190pp.  ISBN 0-7475-0357-5.  The first of the
picture books about crop "circles".  It's a very good
presentation of the facts and their investigative methods. Some
investigators believe UFOs may produce the "circles".

Druffel, Ann and D. Scott Rogo.  The Tujunga Canyon Contacts.
Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1980. 264pp.  ISBN
0-13-932541-7.  Good book about abduction/contact experiences.

Eberhart, George M.  UFOs and the Extraterrestrial Contact
Movement: a bibliography. Metuchen, NJ: Scarecrow Press, 1986.
1298pp.  ISBN 0-8108-1919-8.  An outstanding listing of books,
articles, movies, TV appearances, dissertations, conferences,
etc., about UFOs and related phenomena.  No library in America
should be without it.  Ask your public library to get a copy
today!!

Emenegger, Robert.  UFO's: Past, Present and Future. New York:
Ballantine Books, 1974. 180pp.  ISBN 345-24189-4-150.  Good
general book.  Emenegger produced a film documentary of the same
name.  The US government hinted that it would give him some
"real" flying saucer footage for inclusion in his film.  This
didn't happen.

Evans, Hilary and John Spencer (eds.).  UFOs: 1947-1987 -- The
40-Year Search for an Explanation. London: Fortean Tomes, 1987.
384pp.  ISBN 1-870021-02-9.  Similar to the other book by Spencer
and Evans, but more extensive. A must read for dedicated
ufologists.

Fawcett, Lawrence and Barry J. Greenwood.  Clear Intent: The
Government Coverup of the UFO Experience. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.:
Prentice-Hall, 1984. 259pp.  ISBN 0-13-136656-4.  Very important
book summarizing what ufologists know from studying the thousands
of FOIA-released government UFO documents.  Everything but proof
of crashed flying saucers is here, and it's all from
FOIA-released documents!

Flammonde, Paris.  UFO Exist! New York: Putnam, 1976. 406pp.
ISBN 399-11538-2.  Fine history of the subject from a radio
producer/journalist. The book details the US government's
involvement.

Fowler, Raymond E.  The Andreasson Affair. Englewood Cliffs, NJ:
Prentice-Hall, 1979. 239pp.  ISBN 0-13-036608-0. First book about
a now famous abductee, Betty Andreasson Luca.

Good, Timothy.  Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up. New
York: William Morrow, 1988. 592pp.  ISBN 0-688-07860-5.  The most
important book about the on-going government cover-up.

Haines, Richard F., ed.  UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral
Scientist. Metuchen, N.J.: The Scarecrow Press, 1979. 450pp.
ISBN 0-8108-1228-2.  Scholarly book of papers on how eye
witnesses report UFOs and what cultural factors influence UFO
reports.

Haines, Richard F. Advanced Aerial Devices Reported During the
Korean War. Los Altos, CA: LDA Press, 1990. 75pp.  ISBN
0-9618082-1-7. An important study of early military UFO
sightings.

Haines, Richard F.  Melbourne Episode: Case Study of a Missing
Pilot. Los Altos, CA: L. D. A. Press, 1987. 275pp.  ISBN
0-88229-540-3.  Detailed review and analysis of the Australian
Valentich airplane abduction case.

Haines, Richard F.  Observing UFOs: An Investigative Handbook.
Chicago: Nelson-Hall, 1980. 300pp.  ISBN 0-88229-540-3.
Exceedingly cautious scientific study of mostly night lights and
daylight discs categories of UFOs.

Hall, Richard.  Uninvited Guests: A Documented History of UFO
Sightings, Alien Encounters & Coverups. Santa Fe, NM: Aurora
Press, 1988. 381pp.  ISBN 0-943358-32-9.  A very good summary of
the whole field of ufology. Highly recommended as a place to
start.

Hendry, Allan. The UFO Handbook: A Guide to Investigating,
Evaluating, and Reporting UFO Sightings. Garden City, NY:
Doubleday (Dolphin), 1979. 297pp. ISBN 0-385-14348-6.  The best
study of the subject.  About 1300 UFO reports, all happening
within the year of the study's duration, are dissected.  8.6%
fall into the genuine UFOs category, that is, flying saucers,
whatever they are!

Hopkins, Budd.  Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley
Woods. New York: Random House, 1987. 223pp.  ISBN 0-394-56076-0.
Hopkins' second book.  He says it is likely that aliens are
mixing our genes with theirs, and this is a major purpose of the
abductions.

Hopkins, Budd. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions.
New York: Richard Marek, 1981. 258pp. ISBN 0-399-90102-7.  Hopkins'
first book about abductions.

Howe, Linda Moulton.  An Alien Harvest: Further Evidence Linking
Animal Mutilations and Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms.
Littleton, CO: Linda Moulton Howe Productions, 1989. 455pp.  ISBN
0-9620570-1-0.  Best book of surprisingly few considering the 25
year history of animal mutilations.

Holroyd, Stuart.  Alien Intelligence.  New York: Everest House,
1979. 231pp.  ISBN 0-89696-040-4.  An excellent book by a student
of the paranormal that compares the different kinds of
intelligence, including ET intelligence and "disembodied"
intelligence.

Hynek, J. Allen, Philip J. Imbrogno, and Bob Pratt.  Night Siege:
The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings. New York: Ballantine Books,
1987. 208pp.  ISBN 0-345-34213-5.  About the early 1980s
boomerang UFO flap involving thousands of sightings.

Hynek, J. Allen.  The UFO Experience: A Scientific Inquiry. New
York: Ballantine Books, 1972. 309pp.  ISBN 345-23953-9-150.  The
father of modern ufology writes a solid book about the subject.

Jacobs, David Michael.  The UFO Controversy in America.
Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1975. 362pp.  ISBN
0-253-19006-1.  A historian's review of ufology up to the date of
publication.

Keyhoe, Donald E.  Aliens from Space: The Real Story of
Unidentified Flying Objects. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1973.
322pp.  Keyhoe says the US government has crashed saucers and
alien bodies.  He's probably right. The last of Keyhoe's five
books about UFOs.

Kinder, Gary.  Light Years: An Investigation into the
Extraterrestrial Experiences of Eduard Meier. New York: Atlantic
Monthly Press, 1987. 265pp.  ISBN 0-87113-139-0.  Easy
introduction to the complex Billy Meier case.  The case is noted
for outstanding photos and film of UFOs and extensive contact
notes.

Knight, David C.  UFOs: A Pictorial History From Antiquity to the
Present. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1979. 192pp.  ISBN 0-07-035103-1.
UFO photos galore.

Lorenzen, Coral and Jim Lorenzen.  Flying Saucer Occupants. New
York: New American Library (Signet), 1967. 215pp.  One of many
important books by longtime UFO researchers and directors of the
UFO investigative organization, APRO. Both deceased today, but
not forgotten for their lasting contribution to ufology.

McCambell, James M.  UFOLOGY: A Major Breakthrough in the
Scientific Understanding of Unidentified Flying Objects.
Millbrae, CA: Celestial Arts, 1976. 184pp.  ISBN 0-89087-144-2.
Straightforward analysis of probable physics of UFO phenomena.

Noyes, Ralph, ed.  The Crop Circle Enigma: Grounding the
Phenomenon in Science, Culture and Metaphysics. Bath, UK: Gateway
Books, 1990. 192pp.  ISBN 0-946551-66-9. More facts and
speculation about the "agriglyphs".

Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt.  UFO Crash at Roswell.
New York: Avon, 1991. 327pp.  ISBN 0-380-76196-3. The authors
don't back down. They say they have proved beyond a reasonable
doubt that a flying saucer -- not a UFO -- crashed in NM in the
summer of 1947.  Get off your duff.  Prove them wrong!

Randles, Jenny. Abduction: Over 200 Documented UFO Kidnappings
Investigated. London: Robert Hale, 1988. 240pp.  ISBN
0-7090-3276-5. A British UFO researcher does a book about
abductions. It is important for showing that abductions are not
just a North (or South) American  phenomenon.

Randles, Jenny.  The UFO Conspiracy: The First Forty Years. New
York: Blanford Press, 1987. 224pp.  ISBN 0-7137-1972-9.
Excellent summary of the worldwide coverup of UFO information.

Randles, Jenny. UFO Reality: A Critical Look at the Physical
Evidence. London: Robert Hale, 1983. 248pp.  ISBN 0-7090-1080-X.
Very good presentation of the range of evidence for genuine UFO
reality.

Randles, Jenny and Peter Warrington.  Science and the UFOs.
Oxford, U.K.: Basil Blackwell, 1985. 215pp.  ISBN 0-631-13563-4.
Why the science establishment doesn't recognize and study UFOs.

Ruppelt, Edward J. The Report of Unidentified Flying Objects.
Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1956. 277pp. Written by a former
head of the AF's Project Blue Book public relations UFO effort.
"Brand New Enlarged Edition Latest, Up-to-the-minute Facts on
UFO!" on dust jacket.  No indication whatsoever inside the new
edition that it differs from the earlier edition by the addition
of three extra (debunking) chapters.  Without the dust jacket you
would never know there are two distinct editions of this classic
UFO book.  Some UFO researchers speculate that the Air Force/CIA
was displeased enough with Ruppelt's pro-UFO first edition that
they made him include the last three chapters in the "new
edition"!

Sagan, Carl and Thorton Page, eds.  UFO's -- A Scientific Debate.
New York: Norton, 1972. 310pp.  ISBN 0-393-00739-1.  Appeared
shortly after the Condon Committee Report said once again that
saucers don't exist so they won't be studied by science.  UFO
proponents, debunkers, and honest skeptics have their say here.

Salisbury, Frank B. The Utah UFO Display: A Biologist's Report.
Old Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair, 1974. 286pp.  ISBN
0-8159-7000-5.  Straightforward recounting of UFO events in Utah
1966-1973 with some intelligent speculation about what it might
mean.

Saunders, David R. and R. Roger Harkins.  UFOs? Yes! Where the
Condon Committee Went Wrong. New York: World Publishing, 1968.
256pp.  LC 68-59202.  This book was written by a scientist
(Saunders) fired by Condon when he leaked a confidential
department memo that made it clear that the Condon UFO Study was
a sham.

Schwarz, Berthold E.  UFO Dynamics: Psychiatric and Psychic
Aspects of the UFO Syndrome. Moore Haven, FL: Rainbow Books,
1988. 560pp.  ISBN 0-935834-64-8.  A psychiatrist deals with the
psychic components of the UFO phenomena.

Scully, Frank.  Behind the Flying Saucers. New York: Henry Holt,
1950. 230pp.  The first book in English about UFOs.  Hollywood
reporter talks about crashed discs that have only become
plausible to mainstream investigators again in the 1980s.

Sitchin, Zecharia.  The 12th Planet.  New York: Avon, 1978.
436pp.  ISBN 0-380-39362-X. This lay scholar/journalist presents
the best documented ancient astronaut evidence in his series of
books -- this being the first one.

Spencer, John and Hilary Evans, eds.  Phenomenon: Forty Years of
Flying Saucers. New York: Avon Books, 1988. 413pp.  ISBN
0-380-70654-7.  Essays about ufology from prominent ufologists in
America and Europe.  Good for seeing that UFOs are a worldwide
phenomenon.

Story, Ronald, ed. The Encyclopedia of UFOs. Garden City, NY:
Doubleday (Dolphin Books), 1980. 440pp. ISBN 0-385-11681-0.  The
best of the encyclopedic books on UFOs.  Don't miss this.  Get
your local library to buy a copy.

Strieber, Whitley.  Communion: A True Story. New York: William
Morrow, 1987. 299pp.  ISBN 0-688-07086-8.  Bestselling book by
previously bestselling author.  It's about his probable
abductions.

Vallee, Jacques.  Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien
Contact. New York: Ballantine Books, 1990. 263pp.  ISBN
0-345-36453-8. Vallee is back to presenting "hard evidence" again
instead of speculation. Some Brazilian peasants were killed in
apparent encounters with UFOs.

Vallee, Jacques.  Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact. New
York: Contemporary Books, 1988. 304pp.  ISBN 0-8092-4586-8. The
best statement of Vallee's thesis -- UFOs are a manifestation of
a time immemorial alien control system.

Vallee, Jacques.  Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and
Cults. Berkeley, CA: And/Or Press, 1979. 243pp.  ISBN
0-915904-38-1.

Vallee, Jacques.  Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying
Saucers. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969. 372pp.  ISBN
0-8092-8330-1. A study of the surprising parallels between fairy
lore and modern accounts of UFO beings.



--
I speak only for myself....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go
 blindfold to the wall"                                  Robin Trower....
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 18:31:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16904 alt.paranormal:3517 alt.alien.visitors:2707 talk.religion.newage:7441

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts) writes:
>>
>>
>>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
>
>What????
>
>What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
>
>Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?

    From 'The Effects of Nuclear Weapons', 1962 edition, glossary:

    Fission: The process whereby the nucleus of a particular heavy
element splits into (generally) two nuclei of lighter elements, with
the release of substantial amounts of energy. The most important fissionable
materials are uranium 235 and plutonium 239. (pg 704)

    Thermonuclear: An adjective referring  to the process (or processes)
in which very high temperatures are used to bring about the fusion of light
nuclei, such as those of the hydrogen isotopes (deuterium and tritium), with
the accompanying liberation of energy. A 'Thermonuclear Bomb' is a weapon
in which part of the explosion energy results from thermnonuclear fusion
reactions. The high temperatures need are obtained by means of a fission
reaction. See 'Fusion'. (pg 174)

    Fission and fusion (thermonuclear) don't seem all that hard to
keep straight. Thermonuclear weapons are fusion weapons; if the bomb
didn't use fusion to provide some of the energy, it was not a
thermonuclear bomb.

    Nagasaki and Hiroshima both were hit with *fission* bombs,
with yields in the ten kiloton range. If thermonuclear weapons had
been available and used, the yields would probably have been about
one hundred times bigger (The difference in scale between being
run over by a Toyota Corolla or an M-1 Abrahms (sp?) or being stepped
on by a housecat or a horse).

    Does fallout count as a direct effect or indirect? The people
on the Lucky Dragon died after being exposed to the fallout of an H Bomb test,
didn't they?

                            James Nicoll

                            James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!ccb104
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Info on Roswell Book
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 19:38:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 6

What about:

Crain, T. Scott, Jr., and Grant Cameron. UFOs, MJ-12, and the Government;
A Report on an Investigation of UFO Crash Retrievals. (1990) MUFON. 218+
pages; index; many letters, documents, etc. Includes some new, unexploited
leads found in no other (?) book to date.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ulowell!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 08:26:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: WorldWide Software
Lines: 12
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2710 sci.skeptic:16919

[e-mail] writes:

? There is a space scientist by the name of Soltec who found  that when
? space people come to the Earth their people within two years, start to act
? combative, hard to get along with and generally start acting like people and
? animals here on Earth.

Now I don't have to feel bad anymore because I am racist, sexist, and
eat small children. :-)
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
Alright, you!!  Imitate a WOUNDED SEAL pleading for a PARKING SPACE!!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!mnetor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 00:50:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16921 talk.religion.newage:7447 alt.atheism:16928 alt.alien.visitors:2711 alt.paranormal:3518

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>
>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>religion is the study of everything else.
>
no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
art (the study of everything else). art and Science are equally valid and
equally worthwhile endeavors and I wish that I could have been born X
many years from now in a society where these pursuits were the dominant
activities of the human race. Religeon is just fleeting bullshit we will
all do much better without.

>--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
>Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
>devastatingly true, except the bits #
>that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #

ALEX BUNKER
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 02:07:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 26

Kellan Hatch writes:

"Then i'll take your word for it" (regarding my own feelings
regarding UFOs).

Kellan:

No, don't take my word.
Follow your own intuition and your own feelings.

In regard to your question about healing work and charging for
such...the answer is no.  Although in Reiki work I was told
that there should be an exchange of energy, in Japan the people
oftentimes gave the Reiki practitioner something for his time
(food, offering, etc) so I have opened (but still do not know if
I feel comfortable on this one) to accepting donations for time
involved to give a treatment.  I have spent a number of years giving
Therapeutic Touch as part of service and help to others.  There
has never been any charge for this.  There is never a charge for
energy (my opinion).  But many ARE charging for the time involved..
others are involved in the healing arts as an OCCUPATION (such
as massage therapists, reflexologists, masseurs, etc.)

Why do you ask?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Encounters of 5th kind
Summary: 5th Kind
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 19:48:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
> George Newell writes:

> > 5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
> >               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.

> This is when an Earth human somehow contacts an extraterrestrial
> (telepathy, waving, smoke signals, verbal communication, dreams, etc)
> for the express purpose of coming into face-to-face contact usually,
> but not always, including a ride on the alien's craft.

     I've tried to do this, so far without success.  Maybe my telepathic
abilities just aren't up to snuff.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!yang.earlham.edu!jeffj
From: [e-mail] (Dr. Thaddeus V. Nuncheon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Lambda Radiation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 03:25:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>     Why do all these different kind of aliens, with different messages,
> anatomies and spacecraft show such an interest in out Earth?  It's not
> THAT interesting is it ....?

    For the most part, we find your planet interesting for the same reasons
anthropologists find studying primitive cultures on your own planet
interesting - we believe it may give us some insight into ourselves.
    But, there are those of us (like myself) who watch your humble ball of
rock in much the same way as your children watch anthills - it looks neat.

    Please do not flame the owner of this account.  I have gained access
to his computer to post this.

/=========================================================================\
|        The Incomprehensible Dr. Thaddeus V. Nuncheon                 |
|                aka                      |
|                      Jeff Johnston                   |
 >=======================================================================<
|       Current Quote:                             |
|        "Reality is an escape for those people who cannot      |
|        accept insanity."  - David "Ivan" Vacca              |
 >=======================================================================<
|    Bitnet Address:        [e-mail]              |
|    Internet Address:    [e-mail]              |
\=========================================================================/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!uflorida!maple.circa.ufl.edu!KEITH
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: atr and science
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 02:38:16 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Florida CIRCA VAX Cluster
Lines: 6

The whole concept of right brain left brain, ie being either a math person
or an english person is absurd and encourages us to only use half our brain.
considering how little of our brains we use, I see no logic in dividing it
even further. Art and science are not mutually exclusive interests, and many
people have branched the two areas successfully. The name Robert Anton Wilson
comes to mind.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!fdurt1!wisdom!sugra!ken
From: [e-mail] (Kenneth Ng)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 03:37:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Private computer - Bloomfield NJ USA
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16930 alt.paranormal:3519 alt.alien.visitors:2716 talk.religion.newage:7450

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts) writes:
: >>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
: >What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
: >Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?
:     From 'The Effects of Nuclear Weapons', 1962 edition, glossary:
:     Fission: [edit]
:     Thermonuclear: [edit]

For the most part these definitions are basically correct.  However, there
are ways of boosting a fission bomb output by going part way, but not
completely into a fusion bomb.  See current traffic in other newsgroups
on what Iraq has been accused of doing recently for further details.

--
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to [e-mail] for now.
"No problem, here's how you build it" -- R. Barclay, ST: TNG
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!cs.uoregon.edu!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GIF: Pleiadian Beamship - 13K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:44:07 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 225
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2717 alt.conspiracy:8310 sci.skeptic:16933


This is alleged to be a Pleiadian Beamship. Possibly a Variation II type

This is Black and White.

-----------CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------------


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end

----- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: RE-POST: Marsface GIF - 29K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:47:46 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 483
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2718 alt.conspiracy:8311 sci.skeptic:16934



This is a re-post of the Marsface GIF that made the rounds a few months
ago.

-------- CUT HERE -----------------------------------------------------


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end

------- CUT HERE --------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,allt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GIF: Here's what a GREY looks like - 14K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:51:16 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 236
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2719 sci.skeptic:16935


This is a reproduction of your "typical" (if there is such a thing)
GREY alien. Black and White.

------ Cut Here --------------------------------------------------


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9<B5W<BFW<BWW<C$W<S5W<SFW<V>@    .P1W

end

----- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: REPORT: _The Summer 1991 Crop Circles: The Data Emerges_
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:59:33 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2720 alt.conspiracy:8312 sci.skeptic:16936


This was on a recent UFO echo and my thanks to Sheldon for posting
it originally.

----- Begin included text -----------------------------------------


Date: 10-20-91  20:01
From: Sheldon Wernikoff
Subj: 1991 CROP CIRCLES

Michael Chorost, Director of North American Circle, P.O. Box 61144
Durham, NC 27715-1144 has just sent me a copy of his latest report
entitled _The Summer 1991 Crop Circles: The Data Emerges_,
published by the Fund for UFO Research, P.O. Box 277, Mt. Ranier,
MD 20712. What follows is extracted from his report.

Marshall Dudley believes he has identified yttrium-88 and bismuth-
205 in soil samples taken from the oval formation at Beckhampton,
U.K. formed on August 2/3, 1991. These are non-naturally occurring
short-lived isotopes, so their presence, once confirmed, will be of
great interest. (Y-88's half-life is 107 days; Bi-205's is 15.3
days.) The samples also registered sky-high alpha/beta particle
readings of 198% / 45% respectively when compared to control
samples. Dudley is a systems engineer for Tennelec/Nucleus of Oak
Ridge, TN, and manufactures gas flow counters, which are
instruments designed to detect extremely minute quantities of alpha
and beta radiation.

Dr. W.C. Levengood, a biophysicist living in Michigan, specializing
in plant and seed development, has also made some remarkable
discoveries. One was that the growth nodes on plants taken from
within authentic circles had become significantly enlarged when
compared to control plants. He hypothesizes that some energy input,
possibly heat, caused the cells in those nodes to swell, causing
lasting but not fatal damage. Mechanically hoaxed circles did not
exhibit the same effect. Secondly, Levengood discovered a high
incidence (40%) of seed malformation in plants taken from the
Newton St. Loe formation, whereas virtually all control seeds were
normal. Thirdly, microscopic examination of the node cells revealed
that the pits in their cell walls had become larger and more
visible. This is what Levengood hypothesizes would occur if
something heated the water inside the cells so rapidly that the
cell walls swelled and forced the pits to expand.

Michael also mentions the plasma vortex quintuplet sets that I have
observed, photographed/video-taped, and previously posted
applicable documentation about on this echo.

There is much more information and substantiation in Michaels
report, which I would be happy to share with those interested.
Michael's conclusions are summarized as follows:
1) The phenomenon induces radiation anomalies. 2) It appears the
plants are heated both rapidly and briefly. 3) Plants are sometimes
scorched, particularly grasses. 4) Plant cell walls swell,
elongating cell wall pits, leaving "stretch marks". 5) Induced
developmental anomalies in seeds. 6) The circles may correlate with
aquifers (water saturated rocks such as chalk and limestone) 7) The
circles do correlate, at least grossly, with ancient megaliths. 8)
The quintuplet may be artificially duplicable. 9) Hoaxes may be
able to be distinguished from genuine circles with laboratory
tests. 10) Some formations may represent or symbolize known
objects. 11) The circles do correlate geographically with some well
documented sightings of unidentified luminous aerial objects.

Thanks Michael, for your admirable achievement...Sheldon

---- EOF ----

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: File: History of UFO's During World War II
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:04:08 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 96
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2721 alt.conspiracy:8313 sci.skeptic:16937



I came across this recently and thought it might be interesting to
post this and see what the reaction is going to be :-)

------ Begin included text -----------------------------------------


          CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington

                 History of UFO's During World War II


During world war II the accumulation of sightings of mysterious celestial
objects, finally started to worry the military authorities.

In both camps, high-ranking officials of the intelligence services started to
study these strange objects and investigation committees composed of military
and scientific personnel were set up in various countries. They had a double
purpose: first of all to determine the nature of these flying objects and then
to see if they constituted a threat to the security of the nation.

During world war II, the Allies, just like the Germans, noticed the presence
of these enigmatic flying objects above their secret bases. The first reaction
of each side was obviously to suspect espionage on the part of their enemy.

In 1943 the English were the first to set up a special group to enquire into
the question of these object.  The British set up a small organization to
collect evidence. It was headed by Lieutenant General Massey and was inspired
by reports from a spy who, in fact was a double agent operating under the
orders of the Mayor of Cologne. He had comfirmed that the "Foo-fighters" were
not German devices, but that the Germans thought that they were Allied weapons
which, of course, the British knew was not so.

Later in 1966, was learned from the British Aviation Minister that project
Massey had been officially classified in 1944. Perhaps it was pure
coincidence, but the double agent was denounced and executed at the beginning
of that year. For their part the Germans did not remain inactive. But in 1944,
the Wehemacht asked Oberkommando of the "Luftwaffe (aviation)" to set up a
center to collect information on all the various sightings of these mysterious
celestial object.

This was known as Sonderburo No 13 which, until the time of the German defeat
scrupulously applied itself to its job. The short time that this commission
was in existence prevented it from coming to any definite conclusions, but it
collected an impressive amount of information.

The first sighting, studied by the Sonderburo, went back two year and came
from a Hauptmann Fischer, an engineer in civil life. On March 14,1942, at 5:35
p.m., Fischer landed at the secret air base at Banak, in Norway.

At that instant the radar picked up a luminous object and Fischer was asked to
go up and identify it.  At about 10,000 feet the pilot caught sight of the
object, and gave a description by radio to the base: an enormous streamlined
craft about 300 feet long and about 50 feet in diameter. The aerial whale
which was Fischer's title for it stayed horizontal for a long moment before
rising vertically and disappearing at great speed.

It was not a machine constructed by the hand of man, Fischer stated in his
report. On reading the report, Air Marshall Hermann Goering concluded that the
solitude of the north does not seem to have done much for this pilot. The
report of another interesting incident was carefully preserved in the archives
of the German Investiganion Committee: that of the launching of an
experimental rocket on February 12, 1944, at the Kummersdorf test center.

On that day the Minister of Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, S.S. Reichsfuhrer
Himmler and S.S. Gruppenfuhrer Heinz Kammler were present at the launching
which was being filmed. Some days later the authorities at the base organized
a showing of the film. The astonished spectators, could see very clearly a
spherical body which followed the rocket and circled around it.

The authorities immediately suspected Allied espionage. However, an agent
informed Himmler that the English were themselves victims of the same sort of
phenomenon and thought that it was a new type of German prototype craft.
However, the most convincing evidence filed away by the Sonderburo came from a
military flying ace.

On September 29, 1944, at 10:45 a.m., a test pilot was trying out a new
Messerschmitt jet, ME 262 Schwalbe, when his attention was suddenly caught by
two luminous points situated on his right. He shot at full speed in that
direction and found himself face to face with a cylindrical object, more than
three hundred feet long with some openings along its side, and fitted with
long antennae placed in front up to about halfway along its length. Having
approached within about 1,500 feet of the craft the pilot was amazed to see
that it was moving at a speed of more than 1,200 m.p.h.

 =============================================================================

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: MUFON file: UFO Sighting in Kazakhstan, Soviet Union
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:07:36 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 45
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2722 alt.conspiracy:8314 sci.skeptic:16938

The following came off the MUFONET UFO echo

---- Begin included text -------------------------------------------


         MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                       UFO NEWS - WIRE
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=START=   XMT: 10:38 Wed Oct 16  EXP: 11:00 Thu Oct 17

UFO SIGHTING REPORTED IN KAZAKHSTAN, SOVIET UNION

ARKALYK (OCT. 16) TASS -

RESIDENTS OF THIS REGIONAL CENTRE IN KAZAKHSTAN SIGHTED AN
UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT LAST WEEK, THE LOCAL YOUTH
NEWSPAPER EXPRESS-K REPORTS TODAY.

THE UFO, SEEN ON THE EVE OF THE SOVIET-AUSTRIAN SPACE CREW'S
LANDING, WAS DESCRIBED BY EYE-WITNESSES AS A SAUCER WITH A
SIMI-TRANSPARENT HALO AND RAYS "SHOOTING OUT" IN DIFFERENT
DIRECTIONS.

ACCORDING TO THE NEWSPAPER, THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THE
LOCAL RESIDENTS OBSERVED THE PHENOMENON IN THE SKY OVER THE
CITY.  SURPRISINGLY ENOUGH, UFOS TAKE THE SAME ROUTE, FLYING
FROM THE NORTH DOWN TO SOUTH, TOWARDS THE USUAL LANDING AREA
OF SOVIET COSMONAUTS.

THE NEWSPAPER CLAIMS UFOS OBVIOUSLY DISPLAY KEEN INTEREST IN
EITHER BAUXITE DEPOSITES LOCATED IN THE AREA OR IN THE
SOVIET SPACE PROGRAMME.

=END=

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: EBE.DOC part 1 - 51K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:17:36 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 910
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2723 alt.conspiracy:8315 sci.skeptic:16939




I found the following file when I was re-organizing my disk collection. I
didn't even know I had this until the other day and sat down and read the
whole thing. I've decided to post it for informational purposes only. I
have *not* received permission from Apogee Publishing Company nor ParaNet
to re-publish it. Other than the removal of the _continuation_ headers
to conserve space, the file is presented intact in 2 parts.


FILENAME: EBE.DOC
=============================================================================


Message #799 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 25-Jan-91 14:00
   From : Michael Corbin
     To : All
Subject : EBE #1
Recently, Jerry Clark published the first of three volumes titled "UFOs in the
1980s," an invaluable research tool containing a host of information on the
who, where and what of UFOlogy. With his kind permission and the kind
permission of Apogee Publishing Company, we are reprinting an article taken
from that book -- Extraterrestrial Biological Entity.  In this article, Jerry
culls all of the past history and controversy surrounding the MJ-12
controversy and other related material that has spewed forth from the extreme
side of UFOlogy representing the ETH such as Lear, Cooper and others. Although
this might be considered by some to be "old news," Jerry's chronology of
events shed a different light on the players that have made up this compendium
of scenarios -- aliens eating humans, genetic experimentation and the gamut of
sensationalistic information that drove Paul Bennewitz to an NBD at the kind
hands of admitted-disinformant, William L. Moore.

This article is being presented here in its entirety contained in 18 messages
including this one.  The entire body of these messages are copyrighted (C)
1990 by Apogee Books with license to ParaNet(sm) Information Service for
reproduction on this forum.  No further reposting or copying is allowed
without express written permission of the publisher.

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
ParaNet has received exclusive permission to reprint this
article by the copyright holder.
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 928
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0928
============================================================
UFOs in the 1980s
(C) 1990 by Apogee Books and Jerome Clark
Pages 85 - 109
============================================================
EXTRATERRESTRIAL BIOLOGICAL ENTITIES

 Perhaps the strangest and most convoluted UFO story of the 1980s
concerns   allegations  from  various  sources,  some   of   them
individuals  connected with military and  intelligence  agencies,
that  the U.S. government not only has communicated with but  has
an  ongoing  relationship  with  what  are  known  officially  as
"extraterrestrial biological entities," or EBEs.

The Emenegger/Sandler Saga: The story begins in 1973, when Robert
Emenegger  and  Alan  Sandler,  two  well-connected  Los  Angeles
businessmen, were invited to Norton Air Force Base in  California
to  discuss  a  possible documentary film  on  advanced  research
projects. Two military officials, one the base's head of the  Air
Force  Office  of Special Investigations, the other,  the  audio-
visual director Paul Shartle, discussed a number of projects. One
of them involved UFOs. This one sounded the most interesting  and
plans were launched to go ahead with a film on the subject.

 Emenegger and Sandler were told of a film taken at Holloman AFB,
New  Mexico,  in  May  1971.  In  October  1988,  in  a  national
television broadcast, Shartle would declare that he had seen  the
16mm  film  showing "three disc-shaped craft. One  of  the  craft
landed  and two of them went away." A door opened on  the  landed
vehicle and three beings emerged. Shartle said, "They were human-
size.  They  had an odd, gray complexion and a  pronounced  nose.
They  wore tightfitting jump suits, [and] thin  headdresses  that
appeared  to  be communication devices, and in their  hands  they
held  a  'translator.' A Holloman base commander  and  other  Air
Force officers went out to meet them" (Howe, 1989).

 Emenegger was led to believe he would be given the film for  use
in  his  documentary. He was even taken to Norton and  shown  the
landing  site  and the building in which the spaceship  had  been
stored  and  others (Buildings 383 and 1382)  in  which  meetings
between  Air  Force personnel and the aliens had  been  conducted
over the next several days. According to his sources, the landing
had  taken place at 6 a.m. The extraterrestrials  were  "doctors,
professional  types." Their eyes had vertical slits like a  cat's
and their mouths were thin and slitlike, with no chins." All that
Emenegger was told of what occurred in the meetings was a  single
stray "fact": that the military people said they were  monitoring
signals from an alien group with which they were unfamiliar,  and
did their ET guests know anything about them? The ETs said no.

 Emenegger's military sources said he would be given 3200 feet of
film  taken  of  the  landing.  At  the  last  minute,   however,
permission  was  withdrawn, although Emenegger and  Sandler  were
encouraged   to  describe  the  Holloman  episode  as   something
hypothetical, something that could happen or might happen in  the
future.  Emenegger  went to Wright-Patterson AFB,  where  Project
Blue Book had been located until its closing in 1969, to ask Col.
George  Weinbrenner  one  of  his  military  contacts,  what  had
happened.  According  to Emenegger's account, the  exchange  took
place in Weinbrenner's office. The colonel stood up, walked to  a
chalkboard  and  complained in a loud voice, "That damn  MIG  25!
Here  we're  so public with everything we have. But  the  Soviets
have  all  kinds of things we don't know about. We need  to  know
more about the MIG 25!" Moving to a bookshelf and continuing  his
monologue  about the Russian jet fighter, he handed  Emenegger  a
copy  of  J. Allen Hynek's The UFO Experience  (1972),  with  the
author's signature and dedication to Weinbrenner. "It was like  a
scene from a Kafka play," Emenegger would recall , inferring from
the colonel's odd behavior that he was confirming the reality  of
the   film  while  making  sure  that  no  one  overhearing   the
conversation realized that was what he was doing.

 The  documentary  film  UFO's Past, Present  &  Future  (Sandler
Institutional  Films,  Inc.) was released in 1974  along  with  a
paperback  book  of  the same title.  The  Holloman  incident  is
recounted in three pages (127-29) of the book's "Future" section.
Elsewhere,  in  a  section of photos  and  illustrations,  is  an
artist's  conception of what one of the Holloman entities  looked
like,  though  it, along with other alien figures,  is  described
only  as  being "based on  eyewitness  descriptions"  (Emenegger,
1974). Emenegger's association with the military and intelligence
he had met while doing the film would continue for years. At  one
point in the late 1980s his sources told him that He was about to
be invited to film an interview with a live extraterrestrial in a
Southwestern state, he says, but nothing came of it.

The  Suffern Story: On October 7, 1975, a 27-year old  carpenter,
Robert  Suffern,  of Bracebridge, Ontario, got a  call  from  his
sister who had seen a "fiery glow" near his barn and concluded it
was  on  fire. Suffern drove to the spot and,  after  determining
that there was no problem, got back on the road. There, he  would
testify, he encountered a large disc-shaped object resting in his
path. "I was scared," he said. "It was right there in front of me
with  no  lights and no sign of life." But even  before  his  car
could  come to a complete stop, the object abruptly ascended  out
of sight. Suffern turned his car around and decided to head  home
rather  than  to  his  sister's  place,  his  original   intended
destination. At that point a small figure wearing a helmet and  a
silver-gray suit stepped in front of the car, causing Suffern  to
hit  the brakes and skid to a stop. The figure ran into a  field.
Then, according to Suffern, "when he got to the fence, he put his
hands  on a post and went over it with no effort at all.  It  was
like he was weightless" (UFOIL, n.d.).

 Within  two days Suffern's report was on the wire services,  and
Suffern   was   besieged  by  UFO   investigators,   journalists,
curiosity-seekers,  and  others. Suffern, who made no  effort  to
exploit his story and gave every appearance of believing what  he
was  saying, soon tired of discussing it. A year later,  however,
Suffern  and his wife told a Canadian investigator that  a  month
after  the encounter, they were informed that  some  high-ranking
officials  wished to speak with them. Around this time,  so  they
claimed,  they  were  given  thorough  examinations  by  military
doctors. After that an appointment was set up for December 12 and
on  that  day an Ontario Provincial Police cruiser  arrived  with
three  military officers, one Canadian, two American.  They  were
carrying books and other documents. In the long conversation that
followed,  the officers apologized for the UFO landing,  claiming
it   was  a  "mistake"  caused  by  the  malfunctioning   of   an
extraterrestrial spaceship.

 The  officers produced close-up pictures of UFOs, claiming  that
the  U.S. and Canadian governments had had intimate knowledge  of
aliens  since 1943 and were cooperating with them.  The  officers
even  knew  the  exact  dates  and  times  of  two  previous  but
unreported  UFO sightings on the Suffern property.  The  Sufferns
said  the  officers had answered all their  questions  fully  and
frankly,  but  they would not elaborate on what they  were  told.
Reinterviewed  about  the matter some months  later,  the  couple
stuck by their story but added few further details.

 The  investigator, Harry Tokarz, would remark,  "Robert  Suffern
strikes one as an individual who carefully measures his thoughts.
His  sincerity  comes through clearly as he  slowly  relates  his
concepts and ideas. His wife, a home-bred country girl, is  quick
to air her views and state unequivocally what she believes to  be
fact" (CUFORN, 1983).

EBEs in South Dakota: On February 9, 1978, a curious document--an
apparent  carbon  copy  of an official U.S.  Air  Force  incident
report-arrived at the office of the National Enquirer in Lantana,
Florida.  Accompanying the document was an unsigned letter  dated
"29  Jan." It read: "The incident stated in the  attached  report
actually  occurred.  The Air Force appointed a  special  team  of
individuals  to  investigate  the incident. I was  one  of  those
individuals.  I am still on active duty and so I cannot state  my
name at this time. It is not that I do not trust the Enquirer  (I
sure [sic] you would treat my name with [sic] confidence but I do
not trust others.) The incident which occurred on 16 Nov. 77, was
classified top secret on 2 Dec 77. At that time I obtained a copy
of the original report. I thought at that time that the Air Force
would  probably  hush the whole thing up, and they did.  The  Air
Force  ordered the silence on 1 Dec 77, after which,  the  report
was  classified. There were 16 pictures taken at the scene. I  do
not have access to the pictures at this time" (Pratt, 1984).

 The report, stamped FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY, purported to be  from
the commander of the 44th Missile Security Squadron at  Ellsworth
AFB near Rapid City, South Dakota. The incident was described  as
a  "Helping  Hand (security  violation)/Covered  Wagon  (security
violation) at Lima 9 (68th SMSq Area), 7 miles SW of Nisland, SD,
at  2100  hours on 16 Nov. 77." The recipient of the  report  was
identified  as "Paul D. Hinzman, SSgt, USAF,  Comm/Plotter,  Wing
Security  Control."  Two security men, Airmen 1st  Class  Kenneth
Jenkins  and  Wayne  E.  Raeke,  experienced  and  reported   the
incident,  which  was investigated by Capt. Larry D.  Stokes  and
TSgt. Robert E. Stewart.

 The  document told an incredible story. At 10:59 on the  evening
of November 16 an alarm sounded from the Lima Nine missile  site.
Jenkins  and Raeke, at tHe Lima Launch Control Facility 35  miles
away,  were dispatched to the scene. On their arrival  Raeke  set
out  to  check the rear fence line. There he spotted  a  helmeted
figure  in  a glowing green metallic suit. The figure  pointed  a
weapon  at Raeke's rifle and caused it to  disintegrate,  burning
Raeke's  hands and arms in the process. Raeke  summoned  Jenkins,
who  carried  his  companion back to their  Security  Alert  Team
vehicle.  When  Jenkins went to the rear fence line, he  saw  two
similarly-garbed figures. He ordered them to halt, but when  they
ignored  his command, he opened fire. His bullets struck  one  in
the shoulder and the other in the helmet. The figures ran over  a
hill and were briefly lost to view. Jenkins pursued them and when
he  next  saw  them, they  were  entering  a  20-foot-in-diameter
saucer-shaped object, which shot away over the Horizon.

 As  Raeke  was  air-evacuated  from  the  scene,   investigators
discovered that the missile's nuclear components had been stolen.

 Enquirer  reporters suspected a hoax but when they called  Rapid
City and Ellsworth to check on the names, they were surprised  to
learn  that such persons did exist. Moreover, all were on  active
duty.  The  Enquirer launched an investigation,  sending  several
reporters  to  Rapid City. Over the course of the next  few  days
they found that although the individuals were real, the  document
inaccurately  listed  their  job titles,  the  geography  of  the
alleged  incident was wrong (there was no nearby hill over  which
intruders could have run), Raeke had suffered no injuries, he and
Jenkins did not even know each other, and no one (including Rapid
City  civilian  residents and area ranchers) had  heard  anything
about  such  an encounter. As one of the  reporters,  Bob  Pratt,
wrote   in  a  subsequent  account,  "We  found  more   than   20
discrepancies  or  errors in the report  -wrong  names,  numbers,
occupations, physical layouts and so on. Had the Security  Option
alert mentioned in the report taken place, it would have involved
all  security personnel at the base and everyone at the base  and
in  Rapid  City (Population 45,000 plus) would have  known  about
it."

The  Bennewitz  Affair:  In the late  1970s  Paul  Bennewitz,  an
Albuquerque businessman trained as a physicist, became  convinced
that   he   was   monitoring   electromagnetic   signals    which
extraterrestrials   were  using  to  control  persons  they   had
abducted. Bennewitz tried to decode these signals and believed he
was succeeding. At the same time he began to see what he  thought
were UFOs maneuvering around the Manzano Nuclear Weapons  Storage
Facility  and the Coyote Canyon test area, located near  Kirtland
AFB, and he filmed them.

 Bennewitz reported all this to the Tucson-based Aerial Phenomena
Research  Organization (APRO), whose directors were  unimpressed,
judging  Bennewitz  to be deluded. But at  Kirtland,  Bennewitz's
claims,  or  at  least  some  of  them,  were  being  taken  more
seriously.  On  October 24, 1980, Bennewitz contacted  Air  Force
Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) agent Sgt. Richard  Doty
(whose  previous tour of duty had been at Ellsworth) after  being
referred  to him by Maj. Ernest Edwards, head of  base  security,
and  related  that  he had evidence  that  something  potentially
threatening  was going on in the Manzano Weapons Storage Area.  A
"Multipurpose  Internal OSI Form," signed by Maj. Thomas A.  Cseh
(Commander  of the Base Investigative Detachment), dated  October
28,  1980,  and  subsequently  released  under  the  Freedom   of
Information Act, states:

 "On  26 Oct 80, SA [Special Agent] Doty, with the assistance  of
JERRY MILLER, GS-15, Chief, Scientific Advisor for Air Force Test
and  Evaluation Center, KAFB , interviewed Dr. BENNEWITZ  at  his
home in the Four Hills section of Albuquerque, which is  adjacent
to  the  northern boundary of Manzano Base. (NOTE:  MILLER  is  a
former  Project Blue Book USAF Investigator who was  assigned  to
Wright-Patterson  AFB (W-PAFB), OH, with FTD [Foreign  Technology
Division].  Mr.  MILLER  is one of  the  most  knowledgeable  and
impartial investigators of Aerial Objects in the southwest.)  Dr.
BENNEWITZ  has been conducting independent research  into  Aerial
Phenomena  for  the last 15 months. Dr. BENNEWITZ  also  produced
several  electronic  recording  tapes,  allegedly  showing   high
periods of electrical magnetism being emitted from Manzano/Coyote
Canyon  area. Dr. BENNEWITZ also produced several photographs  of
flying  objects taken over the general Albuquerque area.  He  has
several  pieces of electronic surveillance equipment  pointed  at
Manzano  and  is attempting to record high  frequency  electrical
beam  pulses. Dr. BENNEWITZ claims these Aerial  Objects  produce
these  pulses.  . . . After analyzing the data collected  by  Dr.
BENNEWITZ, Mr MILLER related the evidence clearly shows that some
type of unidentified aerial objects were caught on film; however,
no conclusions could be made whether these objects pose a  threat
to  Manzano/Coyote Canyon areas. Mr MILLER felt the  electronical
[sic]  recording  tapes  were inconclusive and  could  have  been
gathered  from several conventional sources. No sightings,  other
than these, have been reported in the area."

 On November 10 Bennewitz was invited to the base to present  his
findings to a small group of officers and scientists. Exactly one
week later Doty informed Bennewitz that AFOSI had decided against
further  consideration of the matter. Subsequently Doty  reported
receiving a call from then-New Mexico Sen. Harrison Schmitt,  who
wanted  to know what AFOSI was planning to do  about  Bennewitz's
allegations.  When  informed that no investigation  was  planned,
Schmitt spoke with Brig. Gen. William Brooksher of base security.
The  following  July New Mexico's other senator,  Pete  Domenici,
looked into the matter, meeting briefly with Doty before  dashing
off to talk with Bennewitz personally. Domenici subsequently lost
interest and dropped the issue.

 Bennewitz  was also aware of supposed cattle  mutilations  being
reported  in  the western United States. At one point  he  met  a
young mother who told him that one evening in May 1980, after she
and  her  six-year-old son saw several UFOs in a  field  and  one
approached them, they suffered confusion and disorientation, then
a period of amnesia which lasted as long as four hours. Bennewitz
brought  the  two to University of Wyoming  psychologist  R.  Leo
Sprinkle, who hypnotized them and got a detailed abduction  story
from  the mother and a sketchy one from the little boy. Early  in
the  course  of the abduction they observed aliens  take  a  calf
aboard the UFO and mutilate it while it was still alive, removing
the   animal's  genitals.  At  one  point  during   the   alleged
experience,  the  mother said, they were taken via  UFO  into  an
underground  area  which  she believed was  in  New  Mexico.  She
briefly  escaped  her captors and fled into an area  where  there
were  tanks  of water. She looked into one of them and  saw  body
parts  such  as tongues, hearts and internal  organs,  apparently
from  cattle.  But  she also observed a human  arm  with  a  hand
attached.  There  was also the "top of a bald  head,"  apparently
from  one of the hairless aliens, but before she could  find  out
for  sure,  she was dragged away. The objects in  the  tank,  she
said, "horrified me and made me sick and frightened me to  death"
(Howe, 1989). Later she wondered about the other tanks and  about
their contents.

The William Moore/MJ-12 Maze: Late in the summer of 1979  William
L.  Moore  had left a teaching job in a small Minnesota  town  to
relocate  in Arizona, where he hoped to pursue a writing  career.
Moore was deeply involved in the investigation of an apparent UFO
crash  in New Mexico in July 1947, a case he and Charles  Berlitz
would  recount in their The Roswell Incident the following  year.
After  his move to the Southwest Moore became close to Coral  and
James  Lorenzen  of the Aerial  Phenomena  Research  Organization
(APRO) and in due course Moore was asked to join the APRO  board.
The  Lorenzens told him about Bennewitz's claims. Bennewitz,  Jim
Lorenzen thought, was "prone to make great leaps of logic on  the
basis of incomplete data" (Moore, 1989a).

 The Roswell Incident was published in the summer of 1980 and  in
September  a  debate on UFOs at the Smithsonian  Institution  was
scheduled  to take place. Moore set off from his Arizona home  to
Washington, D.C., to attend the debate and along the way promoted
his  new  book  on radio and television shows.  According  to  an
account he would give seven years later, an extraordinary  series
of events began while he was on this trip.

 He had done a radio show in Omaha and was in the station  lobby,
suitcase in hand, on his way to catch a plane which was to  leave
within the hour when a receptionist asked if he was Mr. Moore. He
had  a  phone  call. The caller was a man who  claimed  to  be  a
colonel at nearby Offutt AFB, He said, "We think you're the  only
one  we've heard who seems to know what he's talking  about."  He
asked  if  he and Moore could meet and discuss  matters  further.
Moore  said  that  since  he was leaving town  in  the  next  few
minutes,  that  would not be possible, though he wrote  down  the
man's phone number.

 Moore went on to Washington. On September 8, on his way back, he
did a radio show in Albuquerque. On the way out of the studio the
receptionist  told  him  he had a phone  call.  The  caller,  who
identified  himself  as an individual from nearby  Kirtland  AFB,
said,  "We think you're the only one we've heard about who  seems
to know what he's talking about." Moore said, "Where have I heard
that before?"

 Soon afterwards Moore and the individual he would call  "Falcon"
met  at a local restaurant. Falcon, later alleged (though  denied
by  Moore) to be U.S. Air Force Sgt. Richard Doty, said he  would
be  wearing a red tie. This first meeting would initiate a  long-
running  relationship  between  Moore (and,  beginning  in  1982,
partner Jaime Shandera) and 10 members of a shadowy group said to
be connected with military intelligence and to be opposed to  the
continuation  of  the UFO cover-up. The story that  emerged  from
this interaction goes like this:

 The  first  UFO crash, involving bodies of  small,  gray-skinned
humanoids,  occurred  near  Corona,  New  Mexico,  in  1947  (the
"Roswell  incident"). Two years later a humanoid was found  alive
and  it  was housed at Los Alamos until its death  in  the  early
1950s.  It  was called EBE,  after  "extraterrestrial  biological
entity," and it was the first of three the U.S. government  would
have  in its custody between then and now. An Air Force  captain,
now  a retired colonel, was EBE-1's constant companion. At  first
communication with it was almost impossible; then a speech device
which enabled the being to speak a sort of English was  implanted
in  its  throat. It turned out that EBE-1, the  equivalent  of  a
mechanic  on a spaceship, related what it knew of the nature  and
purpose of the visitation.

 In  response  to the Roswell incident, MJ-12-the MJ  stands  for
"Majestic"--as  set  up  by executive order  of  President  Harry
Truman  on September 24, 1947. MJ-12 operates as a  policy-making
body.  Project  Aquarius is an umbrella group in  which  all  the
various compartments dealing with ET-related issues perform their
various    functions.   Project   Sigma    conducts    electronic
communication  with  the extraterrestrials, part  of  an  ongoing
contact  project run through the National Security  Agency  since
1964,  following a landing at Holloman AFB in late April of  that
year.

 Nine extraterrestrial races are visiting the earth. One of these
races,   little  gray-skinned  people  from  the   third   planet
surrounding  Zeta Reticuli, have been here for 25,000  years  and
influenced  the direction of human evolution. They also  help  in
the shaping of our religious beliefs. Some important  individuals
within the cover-up want it to end and are preparing the American
people for the reality of the alien presence through the  vehicle
of popular entertainment, including the films Close Encounters of
the Third Kind, whose climax is a thinly-disguised version of the
Holloman landing, and ET.

 At CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, there is a thick  book
called  "The  Bible," a compilation of all  the  various  project
reports.

 According  to his own account, which he would not  relate  until
1989,   Moore  cooperated  with  his   AFOSI   sources-including,
prominently,  Richard  Doty-and provided them  with  information.
They  informed  him  that  there  was  considerable  interest  in
Bennewitz.  Moore was made to understand that as his part of  the
bargain  he was to spy on Bennewitz and also on APRO as well  as,
in Moore's words, "to a lesser extent, several other individuals"
(Moore, 1989a). He learned that several government agencies  were
interested in Bennewitz's activities and they wanted to  inundate
him   with  false  information-disinformation,  in   intelligence
parlance-to  confuse  him.  Moore says he was not  one  of  those
providing  the disinformation, but he knew some of those  of  who
were, such as Doty.

 Bennewitz  on  his own had already begun to  devise  a  paranoid
interpretation of what he thought he was seeing and hearing,  and
the disinformation passed on to him built on that foundation. His
sources  told him that the U.S. government and malevolent  aliens
are in an uneasy alliance to control the planet, that the  aliens
are  killing  and mutilating not only cattle  but  human  beings,
whose organs they need to lengthen their lives, and that they are
even  eating  human  flesh. In underground  bases  at  government
installations in Nevada and New Mexico human and alien scientists
work  together on ghastly experiments, including the creation  of
soulless androids out of human and animal body parts. Aliens  are
abducting  as many as one American in 40 and  implanting  devices
which control human behavior. ClA brainwashing and other  control
techniques  are  doing  the same, turning life on  earth  into  a
nightmare  of  violence  and  irrationality.  It  was,  as  Moore
remarks,  "the  wildest  science fiction  scenario  anyone  could
possibly imagine."

 But Bennewitz believed it. He grew ever more obsessed and  tried
to  alert  prominent  persons to  the  imminent  threat,  showing
photographs  which  he held showed human-alien  activity  in  the
Kirtland area but which dispassionate observers thought  depicted
natural  rock formations and other mundane phenomena.  Eventually
Bennewitz  was  hospitalized,  but on  his  release  resumed  his
activities,  which  continue  to  this  day.  Soon  the  ghoulish
scenario  would spread into the larger UFO community  and  beyond
and  command  a small but committed band of believers.  But  that
would  not  happen  until  the late 1980s and  it  would  not  be
Bennewitz who would be responsible for it.

 In 1981 the Lorenzens received an anonymous letter from  someone
identifying  himself  as a "USAF Airman assigned  to  the  1550th
Aircrew Training and Testing Wing at Kirtland AFB." The  "airman"
said,  "On July 16, 1980, at between 10:30-10:45 A.M.,  Craig  R.
Weitzel.  ..  a  Civil Air Patrol Cadet from  Dobbins  AFB,  Ga.,
visiting  Kirtland AFB, NM, observed a dull metallic colored  UFO
flying  from  South to North near Pecos New Mexico. Pecos  has  a
secret training site for the 1550th Aircrew Training and  Testing
Wing,  Kirtland AFB, NM. WEITZEL was with ten other  individuals,
including  USAF  active  duty  airmen,  and  all  witnessed   the
sighting. WEITZEL took some pictures of the object. WEITZEL  went
closer  to  the  UFO  and observed the UFO  land  in  a  clearing
approximately 250 yds, NNW of the training area. WEITZEL observed
an  individual  dressed in a metallic suit depart the  craft  and
walk  a few feet away. The individual was outside the  craft  for
just  a few minutes. When the individual returned the craft  took
off  towards  the NW." The letter writer said he  had  been  with
Weitzel when the UFO flew overhead, but he had not been with  him
to observe the landing.

 The  letter went on to say that late on the evening of the  next
day  a tall, dark-featured, black-suited man  wearing  sunglasses
called  on Weitzel at Kirtland. The stranger claimed to  be  "Mr.
Huck" from Sandia Laboratories, a classified Department of Energy
contractor  on  the  base.  Mr. Huck told  Weitzel  he  had  seen
something  he  should not have seen, a secret aircraft  from  Los
Alamos,  and he demanded all of the photographs. Weitzel  replied
that  he  hadn't taken any, that the photographer was  an  airman
whose name he did not know. "The individual warned Weitzel not to
mention  the  sighting to anyone or Weitzel would be  in  serious
trouble,"  the  writer  went  on.  "After  the  individual   left
Weitzel[']s room, Weitzel wondered how the individual knew of the
sighting  because Weitzel didn't report the sighting  to  anyone.
Weitzel became scared after thinking of the threat the individual
made.  Weitzel  call [sic] the Kirtland AFB Security  Police  and
reported the incident to them. They referred the incident to  the
Air  Force  Office  of  Special  Investigations  (AFOSI),   which
investigates  these matters according to the security  police.  A
Mr. Dody [sic], a special agent with OSI, spoke with Weitzel  and
took  a report. Mr. Dody [sic] also obtained all the  photographs
of  the  UFO.  Dody [sic] told Weitzel he  would  look  into  the
matter. That was the last anyone heard of the incident."

 But that was not all the correspondent had to say. He added,  "I
have  every  reason  to beleive [sic] the  USAF  is  covering  up
something.  I spent a lot of time looking into this matter and  I
know  there  is more to it than the USAF will say. I  have  heard
rumors,  but serious rumors here at Kirtland that the USAF has  a
crashed UFO stored in the Manzano Storage area, which is  located
in a remote area of Kirtland AFB. This area is heavily guarded by
USAF  Security. I have spoke [sic] with two employees  of  Sandia
Laboratories,  who also store classified objects in Manzano,  and
they  told me that Sandia has examined several UFO's  during  the
last 20 years. One that crashed near Roswell NM in the late  50's
was  examined  by Sandia scientists. That craft  is  still  being
store [sic] in Manzano.

 "I have reason to beleive [sic] OSI is conducting a very  secret
investigation into UFO sightings. OSI took over when Project Blue
Book  was  closed.  I was told this by my  commander,  COL  Bruce
Purvine.  COL Purvine also told me that the investigation was  so
secret that most employees of OSI doesn't [sic] even know it. But
COL  Purvine told me that Kirtland AFB, AFOSI District 17  has  a
special secret detachment that investigates sightings around this
area.  They have also investigated the cattle mutilations in  New
Mexico."

 In  1985 investigator Benton Jamison located Craig Weitzel,  who
confirmed  that he had indeed seen a UFO in 1980 and reported  it
to  Sgt.  Doty. But his sighting, while interesting,  was  rather
less dramatic than the CE3 reported in the letter; Weitzel saw  a
silver-colored object some 10,000 to 15,000 feet overhead.  After
maneuvering  for a few minutes, he told Jamison, it  "accelerated
like you never saw anything accelerate before" (Hastings,  1985).
He also said he knew nothing of a meeting with anyone  identified
as "Mr. Huck."

 In  December  1982,  in response to  a  Freedom  of  Information
request  from  Barry Greenwood of Citizens  Against  UFO  Secrecy
(CAUS),  Air  Force Office of Special Investigations  released  a
two  page  OSI Complaint Form stamped "For  Official  Use  Only."
Dated September 8, 1980, it was titled "Kirtland AFB, NM, 8 Aug-3
Sept  80,  Alleged  Sightings of Unidentified  Aerial  Lights  in
Restricted Test Range." The document described several  sightings
of UFOs in the Manzano Weapons Storage Area, at the Coyote Canyon
section  of the Department of Defense Restricted Test Range.  One
of the reports cited was a New Mexico State Patrolman's August 10
observation  of a UFO landing. (A later check with  state  police
sources  by Larry Fawcett, a Connecticut police officer  and  UFO
investigator,  uncovered no record of such a report. The  sources
asserted  that  the absence of a report could only mean  that  no
such  incident  had ever happened.) This intriguing  document  is
signed by then OSI Special Agent Richard C. Doty.

 In  1987, after comparing three documents (the anonymous  letter
to  APRO,  the  September 8, 1980, AFOSI Complaint  Form,  and  a
purported  AFOSI  document dated August 14,  1980,  and  claiming
"frequency  jamming"  by UFOs in the Kirtland  area),  researcher
Brad  Sparks concluded that Doty had written all three.  In  1989
Moore  confirmed  that  Doty  had written  the  letter  to  APRO.
"Essentially it was 'bait,'" he says. "AFOSI knew that  Bennewitz
had close ties with APRO at the time, and they were interested in
recruiting  someone  within . . . APRO . . . who would  be  in  a
position   to  provide  them  with  feedback   on   Bennewitz'[s]
activities and communications. Since I was the APRO Board  member
in  charge of Special Investigations in 1980, the Weitzel  letter
was passed to me for action shortly after it had been  received."
According to Bruce Maccabee, Doty admitted privately that he  had
written the Ellsworth AFB document, basing it on a real  incident
which  he wanted to bring to public attention. Doty has  made  no
public comment on any of these allegations. Moore says Doty  "was
almost  certainly a part of [the Ellsworth report], but not in  a
capacity  where he would have been responsible for  creating  the
documents involved" (Moore, 1989a).

 Doty was also the source of an alleged AFOSI communication dated
November 17, 1980, and destined to become known as the  "Aquarius
document." Allegedly sent from AFOSI headquarters at Bolling  AFB
in Washington, D.C., to the AFOSI District 17 office at Kirtland,
it  mentions,  in brief and cryptic form, analyses  of  negatives
from a UFO film apparently taken the previous month. The  version
that   circulated  through  the  UFO  community  states  in   its
penultimate  paragraph:  "USAF NO LONGER PUBLICLY ACTIVE  IN  UFO
RESEARCH,  HOWEVER USAF STILL HAS INTEREST IN ALL  UFO  SIGHTINGS
OVER  USAF  INSTALLATION/TEST RANGES.  SEVERAL  OTHER  GOVERNMENT
AGENCIES,  LED  BY NASA, ACTIVELY INVESTIGATES  [sic]  LEGITIMATE
SIGHTINGS  THROUGH  COVERT  COVER....  ONE  SUCH  COVER  IS   UFO
REPORTING  CENTER,  US COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY,  ROCKVILLE,  MD
20852, NASA FILTERS RESULTS OF SIGHTINGS TO APPROPRIATE  MILITARY
DEPARTMENTS  WITH  INTEREST  IN  THAT  PARTICULAR  SIGHTING.  THE
OFFICIAL US GOVERNMENT POLICY AND RESULTS OF PROJECT AQUARIUS  IS
[sic]  STILL  CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET WITH  NO  DISEMINATION  [sic]
OUTSIDE OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS AND WITH RESTRICTED ACCESS
TO 'MJ TWELVE'."

 This  is the first mention of "MJ-12" in an  allegedly  official
government document. Moore describes it as an "example of some of
the  disinformation  produced in connection  with  the  Bennewitz
case.  The document is a retyped version of a real AFOSI  message
with  a  few  spurious additions."  Among  the  most  significant
additions,  by Moore's account, are the bogus references  to  the
U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey and to NASA, which he says was NSA
(National Security Agency) in the original.

 According  to  Moore,  Doty  got the  document  "right  off  the
teletype"   (Moore,   1990)  and  showed  it  to   Moore   almost
immediately. Later Doty came by with what purported to be a  copy
of  it,  but  Moore noticed that it was  not  exactly  the  same;
material had been added to it. Doty said he wanted Moore to  give
the  doctored copy to Bennewitz. Reluctant to involve himself  in
the  passing  of  this dubious document, Moore sat on  it  for  a
while,  then finally worried that the sources he was  developing,
the ones who were telling him about the U.S. government's alleged
interactions with EBEs, would dry up if he did not cooperate.  So
eventually he gave the document to Bennewitz but urged him not to
publicize it. Bennewitz agreed and kept his promise.

 As of September 1982 Moore knew of three copies of the document:
the  one Bennewitz had, one Moore had in safekeeping, and one  he
had  in  his briefcase during a trip he made that month  to  meet
someone in San Francisco. He met the man in the morning and  that
afternoon  someone  broke into his car and stole  his  briefcase.
Four  months later a copy of the document showed up in the  hands
of  a New York lawyer interested in UFOs, and soon  the  document
was  circulating widely. Moore himself had little to say  on  the
subject  until he delivered a controversial and explosive  speech
to the annual conference of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) in Las
Vegas in 1989.

 In  late  1982,  "during," he says, "one of  the  many  friendly
conversations  I had with Richard Doty," Moore mentioned that  he
was looking into the old (and seemingly discredited) story that a
UFO had crashed in Aztec, New Mexico, in 1948. This tale was  the
subject  of Frank Scully's 1950 book Behind the  Flying  Saucers.
(Moore's long account of his investigation into the affair, which
he found to be an elaborate hoax, would appear in the 1985  MUFON
symposium  proceedings.) Doty said he had never heard  the  story
and asked for details, taking notes as Moore spoke.

 On January 10 and 11, 1983, attorney Peter Gersten, director  of
CAUS,  met with Doty in New Mexico. There were two meetings,  the
first of them also attended by Moore and San Francisco television
producer Ron Lakis, the second by Gersten alone. During the first
meeting  Doty  was guarded in his remarks. But at the  second  he
spoke openly about what ostensibly were extraordinary secrets. He
said  the Ellsworth case was the subject of an  investigation  by
AFOSI  and the FBI; nuclear weapons were involved.  The  National
Enquirer investigation, which had concluded the story was  bogus,
was  "amateurish." At least two civilians, a farmer and a  deputy
sheriff,  had  been involved, but were warned not  to  talk.  The
government  knows why UFOs appear in certain places,  Doty  said,
but  he  would not elaborate. He added, however, that  "beyond  a
shadow of a doubt they're extraterrestrial" (Greenwood, 1988) and
from 50 light years from the earth. He knew of at least three UFO
crashes, the Roswell incident and two others, one from the 1950s,
the   other  from  the  196Os.  Bodies  had  been  recovered.   A
spectacular incident, much like the one depicted in the ending of
the  film Close Encounters of the Third Kind, took place in  1966
The  NSA was involved in communications  with  extraterrestrials;
the   effort   is  called  Project  Aquarius.  Inside   the   UFO
organizations  government  moles are collecting  information  and
spreading  disinformation. Doty discussed the  Aquarius  document
and said the really important documents are impossible to get out
of  the appropriate files. Some are protected in such a way  that
they  will  disintegrate within five seconds'  exposure  to  air.
These  documents tell of agreements between the  U.S.  government
and extraterrestrials under which the latter are free to  conduct
animal  mutilations  (especially  of cattle) and  to  land  at  a
certain  base,  in exchange for information  about  advanced  UFO
technology. Doty also claimed that via popular entertainment  the
American  people  are  being prepared to accept  the  reality  of
visitation by benevolent beings from other worlds.

 At one point in the conversation Doty asked Gersten, "How do you
know  that I'm not here to either give you misinformation  or  to
give  you information which is part of the  programming,  knowing
you are going to go out and spread it around?" (Howe, 1989).

 In  the  1970s, as director of special projects for  the  Denver
CBS-TV   affiliate,   Linda   Moulton  Howe   had   produced   12
documentaries,   most   of   them   dealing   with    scientific,
environmental  and health issues. But the one that attracted  the
most  attention was Strange Harvest, which dealt with  the  then-
widespread  reports that cattle in Western and Midwestern  states
were  being  killed and mutilated by persons or  forces  unknown.
Most  veterinary  pathologists  said the animals  were  dying  of
unknown  causes.  Farmers,  ranchers  and  some   law-enforcement
officers thought the deaths were mysterious. Some even speculated
that   extraterrestrials  were  responsible.   This   possibility
intrigued Howe, who had a lifelong interest in UFOs, and  Strange
Harvest argues for a UFO mutilation link.

 In the fall of 1982, as Howe was working on a documentary on  an
unrelated matter, she got a call from Home Box Office (HBO).  The
caller  said  the  HBO people had  been  impressed  with  Strange
Harvest  and wanted to know if Howe would do a film on  UFOs.  In
March 1983 she went to New York to sign a contract with HBO for a
show to be titled UFOs-The ET Factor.

 The  evening  before her meeting with the HBO people,  Howe  had
dinner  with Gersten and science writer Patrick  Huyghe.  Gersten
told  Howe  that  he had met with Sgt. Doty, an  AFOSI  agent  at
Kirtland AFB, and perhaps Doty would be willing to talk on camera
or  in  some  other  helpful  capacity  about  the  incident   at
Ellsworth. Gersten would call him and ask if he would be  willing
to meet with Howe.

 Subsequently   arrangements  were  made  for  Howe  to  fly   to
Albuquerque  on April 9. Doty would meet her at the airport.  But
when she arrived that morning, no one was waiting. She called his
home.  A  small boy answered and said his father was  not  there.
Howe  then phoned Jerry Miller, Chief of Reality Weapons  Testing
at Kirtland and a former Blue Book investigator. (He is mentioned
in  the  October  28,  1980,  "Multipurpose  Internal  OSI  Form"
reporting on Doty and Miller's meeting with Bennewitz.) She  knew
Miller  from  an  earlier telephone conversation,  when  she  had
called  to ask him about Bennewitz's claims, in which she  had  a
considerable  interest.  Miller  asked  for  a  copy  of  Strange
Harvest.  Later he had given Howe his home phone number and  said
to  contact him if she ever found herself in Albuquerque. So  she
called and asked if he would pick her up at the airport.

 Miller  drove  Howe to his house. On the way Howe  asked  him  a
number  of  questions but got little in the way of  answers.  One
question  he  did  not  answer was whether  he  is  the  "Miller"
mentioned  in  the Aquarius document. When they got  to  Miller's
residence, Miller called Doty at his home, and Doty arrived a few
minutes  later, responding aggressively to Howe's question  about
where  he  had been. He claimed to have been at the  airport  all
along;  where had she been? "Perhaps," Howe would write, "he  had
decided he didn't want to go through with the meeting, and it was
acceptable in his world to leave me stranded at the airport-until
Jerry Miller called his house" (Howe, 1989).

 On  the way to Kirtland, Howe asked Doty, whose manner  remained
both defiant and nervous, if he knew anything about the  Holloman
landing. Doty said it happened but that Robert Emenegger had  the
date wrong; it was not May 1971 but April 25, 1964-12 Hours after
a much-publicized CE3 reported by Socorro, New Mexico,  policeman
Lonnie  Zamora. (Zamora said he had seen an egg-shaped object  on
the ground. Standing near it were two child-sized beings in white
suits.)  Military  and scientific personnel at the  base  knew  a
landing  was coming, but "someone blew the time and  coordinates"
and  an "advance military scout ship" had come down at the  wrong
time  and  place,  to  be observed by  Zamora.  When  three  UFOs
appeared  at Holloman at six o'clock the following  morning,  one
landed  while the other two hovered overhead. During the  meeting
between  the  UFO beings and a government  party,  the  preserved
bodies of dead aliens had been given to the aliens , who in  turn
had  returned  something  unspecified.  Five  ground  and  aerial
cameras recorded this event.

 At  the  Kirtland  gate  Doty waved to the  guard  and  was  let
through. They went to a small white and gray building. Doty  took
her  to  what he described as "my - boss'  office."  Doty  seemed
unwilling  to discuss the Ellsworth case, the  ostensible  reason
for the interview, but had much to say about other matters. First
he asked Howe to move from the chair on which she was sitting  to
another in the middle of the room. Howe surmised that this was to
facilitate the surreptitious recording of their conversation, but
Doty said only, "Eyes can see through windows."

 "My  superiors  have  asked me to show you this,"  he  said.  He
produced a brown envelope he had taken from a drawer in the  desk
at  which  he was sitting and withdrew several  sheets  of  white
paper.  As he handed them to Howe, he warned her that they  could
not be copied; all she could do was read them in his presence and
ask questions.

 The document gave no indication anywhere as to which government,
military  or scientific agency (if any) had prepared the  report,
titled A Briefing Paper for the President of the United States on
the  Subject of Unidentified Flying Vehicles. The title  did  not
specify which President it had in mind, nor did the document list
a date (so far as Howe recalls today) which would have linked  it
to a particular administration.


  The first paragraph, written--as was everything that followed--
in  what Howe characterizes as "dry bureaucratese," listed  dates
and  locations  of  crashes  and retrievals  of  UFOs  and  their
occupants. The latter were invariably described as 3 1/2 to  four
feet tall, gray-skinned and hairless, with oversized heads, large
eyes  and  no noses. It was now known, the document stated  on  a
subsequent  page, that these beings, from a nearby solar  system,
have  been  here  for many thousands of  years.  Through  genetic
manipulation they influenced the course of human evolution and in
a  sense  created us. They had also helped  shape  our  religious
beliefs.

 The  July  1947 Roswell crash was mentioned;  so,  however,  was
another  one at Roswell in 1949. Investigators at the site  found
five  bodies and one living alien, who was taken to a safe  house
at  the Los Alamos National Laboratory north of Albuquerque.  The
aliens,    small   gray-skinned   humanoids,   were   known    as
"extraterrestrial  biological  entities" and the living  one  was
called "EBE" (ee-buh). EBE was befriended (if that was the  word)
by an Air Force officer, but the being died of unknown causes  on
June 18, 1952. (EBE's friend, by 1964 a colonel, was among  those
who  were  there  to greet the aliens who  landed  at  Holloman.)
Subsequently,  it would be referred to as EBE-1, since  in  later
years  another  such being, EBE-2, would take up residence  in  a
safe house. After that, a third, EBE-3, appeared on the scene and
was now living in secret at an American base.

 The  briefing  paper said other crashes had  occurred  one  near
Kingman, Arizona, another just south of Texas in northern Mexico.
It  also mentioned the Aztec crash- The wreckage and  bodies  had
been  removed  to such facilities as Los  Alamos  laboratory  and
Wright-Patterson  AFB.  A number of  highly  classified  projects
dealt with these materials. They included Snowbird (research  and
development  from the study of an intact spacecraft left  by  the
aliens  as  a gift) and Aquarius (the  umbrella  operation  under
which the research and contact efforts were coordinated). Project
Sigma was the ongoing electronic communications effort. There was
also   a   defunct  project  Garnet,  intended   to   investigate
extraterrestrial  influence on human evolution. According to  the
document, extraterrestrials have appeared at various intervals in
human history-25,000, 15,000, 5000 and 2500 years ago as well  as
now--to manipulate human and other DNA.

 One   paragraph   stated  briefly,  "Two  thousand   years   ago
extraterrestrials  created a being" who was placed here to  teach
peace  and love. Elsewhere a passing mention was made of  another
group of EBEs, called the "Talls."

 The paper said Project Blue Book had existed solely to take heat
off  the  Air  Force and to draw attention  away  from  the  real
projects.  Doty mentioned an "MJ-12," explaining that "MJ"  stood
for  "Majority."  It was a policy-making  body  whose  membership
consisted of 12 very high-ranking government scientists, military
officers and intelligence officials. These were the men who  made
the decisions governing the cover-up and the contacts.

 Doty  said  Howe  would be given thousands of feet  of  film  of
crashed  discs,  bodies,  EBE-1  and  the  Holloman  landing  and
meeting.  She could use this material in her documentary to  tell
the  story of how U.S. officials learned that the earth is  being
visited and what they have done about it. "We want you to do  the
film," Howe quotes him as saying.

 When Howe asked why she, not the New York Times, the  Washington
Post  or  60  Minutes,  was  getting  this,  the  story  of   the
millennium, Doty replied bluntly that an individual media  person
is  easier to manipulate and discredit than a major  organization
with  expensive attorneys. He said that another plan  to  release
the  information, through Emenegger and Sandler, had been  halted
because political conditions were not right.

 Over  the  next weeks Howe had a number of  phone  conversations
with Doty, mostly about technical problems related to  converting
old film to videotape. She spoke on several occasions with  three
other men but did not meet them personally.

 Doty  suggested that eventually she might be allowed to film  an
interview with EBE-3. But the current film project was to have  a
historical  emphasis; it would deal with events between 1949  and
1964. If at some point she did meet EBE-3, however, there was  no
way she could prepare herself for the "shock and fear" of meeting
an alien being.

 Howe,  of course, had informed her HBO contacts, Jean  Abounader
and   her  superior  Bridgett  Potter,  of  these   extraordinary
developments. Howe urged them to prepare themselves, legally  and
otherwise,  for  the repercussions that would surely  follow  the
release  of the film. The HBO people told her she would have  to
secure  a  letter  of  intent from the  U.S.  government  with  a
legally-binding commitment to release the promised film  footage.
When  Howe called Doty about it, he said, "I'll work on  it."  He
said he would mail the letter directly to HBO.

 Then  HBO  told her it would not authorize funds  for  the  film
production until all the evidence was in hand and, as Potter  put
it,  Howe had the "President, Secretary of Defense, Secretary  of
State and Joint Chiefs of Staff to back it up" (Howe, 1989).  But
proceed  anyway, Howe was told. Now she was furious at  both  HBO
and Doty.

----- Continued in EBE.DOC part 2 --------------------------------

Don


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
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Subject: FILE: EBE.DOC part 2 - 49K
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-----EBE.DOC part 2 (conclusion) -------------------------------


When  she called him at the base, he remarked that he  had  good
news  and  bad news. She and a small crew would soon be  able  to
interview  the  retired colonel (then a captain)  who  had  spent
three  years with EBE-1. The bad news was that it would be  three
months  before  the thousands of feet of film of  EBE-1  and  the
Holloman  landing/contact would be available.  Meanwhile,  before
she  could  screen  the footage, Howe would have  to  sign  three
security  oaths  and undergo a background check. She  would  also
have  to supply photographs of all the technical  assistants  who
would accompany her to the interview.

 The  interview was repeatedly set up and canceled. Then in  June
Doty called to say he was officially out of the project. This was
a blow because Doty was the only one she could call. She did  not
know  how to get in touch with the others and always had to  wait
for them to contact her.

 By  October  the  contacts had decreased.  The  same  month  her
contract  with  HBO  expired. All she had was  the  name  of  the
Washington  contact.  In March 1984 this  individual  called  her
office  three  times, although she was out of town working  on  a
non-UFO story at the time. "Upon returning home," she writes,  "I
learned  the  man  was contacting me to explain  there  would  be
further  delays  in  the film project  after  the  November  1984
election" (Howe, 1989).

 For  Howe  that was the end of the matter, except  for  a  brief
sequel.  On March 5, 1988, Doty wrote ufologist Larry W.  Bryant,
who  had unsuccessfully sought access to Doty's military  records
through  the Freedom of Information Act, and denied that  he  had
ever  discussed  government UFO secrets or  promised  footage  of
crashed  discs, bodies and live EBEs. Howe responded by making  a
sworn  statement  about the meeting an producing  copies  of  her
correspondence from the period with both Doty and HBO.


 In 1989 Moore said that "in early 1983 I became aware that  Rick
[Doty] was involved with a team of several others, including  one
fellow  from  Denver  that I knew of and at  least  one  who  was
working  out  of  Washington,  D.C.,  in  playing  an   elaborate
disinformation scheme against a prominent UfO researcher who,  at
the  time,  had close connections with a  major  television  film
company interested in doing a UFO documentary." He was  referring
to  Howe, of course. The episode was a counterintelligence  sting
operation,  part  of  the "wall of  disinformation"  intended  to
"confuse"  the Bennewitz issue and to "call his credibility  into
question."  Because  of  Howe's  interest  in  Bennewitz's  work,
according  to  Moore, "certain elements within  the  intelligence
community were concerned that the story of his having intercepted
low  frequency electromagnetic emissions from the  Coyote  Canyon
area  of  the Kirtland/Sandia complex would end up as part  of  a
feature film. Since this in turn might influence others (possibly
even  the Russians) to attempt similar experiments, someone in  a
control  position apparently felt it had to be stopped before  it
got out of hand." In his observation, Moore said, "the government
seemed hell bent on severing the ties that existed between [Howe]
and [HBO]" (Moore, 1989b).

 Doty's assertion that Howe had misrepresented their meeting  was
not  to  be taken seriously, according to Moore, since  Doty  was
bound by a security oath and could not discuss the matter  freely
Moore  said that the Aztec crash, known beyond  reasonable  doubt
never  to  have  occurred, was something Doty had  added  to  the
document after learning from Moore of his recent investigation of
the hoax.

 In December 1984, in the midst of continuing contact with  their
own  sources  (Doty  and a number of others) who  claimed  to  be
leaking  the  secret  of the cover-up,  Moore's  associate  Jaime
Shandera  received a roll of 35mm film containing, it turned  out
what  purported to be a briefing paper dated November  18,  1952,
and  intended  for  president-elect  Eisenhower.  The   purported
author, Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, reported that an "Operation
Majestic-12,"  consisting  of a dozen  top  scientists,  military
officers  and  intelligence  specialists,  had  been  set  up  by
presidential  order on September 24, 1947, to study  the  Roswell
remains  and  the four humanoid bodies that  had  been  recovered
nearby. The document report that the team directed by MJ12 member
and  physiologist  Detlev Bronk "has suggested the  term  'Extra-
terrestrial  Biological Entities', or 'EBEs', be adopted  as  the
standard term of reference for these creatures until such time as
a more definitive designation can be agreed upon." Brief  mention
is also made of a December 6, 1950, crash along the  Texas-Mexico
border.   Nothing  is  said,  however,  about  live   aliens   or
communications with them.

 In  July  1985  Moore and Shandera, acting on  tips  from  their
sources,  traveled  to  Washington and spent  a  few  days  going
through  recently  declassified documents in  Record  Group  341,
including  Top  Secret  Air Force intelligence  files  from  USAF
Headquarters. In the 126th box whose contents they examined, they
found  a  brief  memo dated July 14, 1954,  from  Robert  Cutler,
Special  Assistant to the President, to Gen. Nathan  Twining.  It
says  "The  president  has decided that  the  MJ-12/SSP  [Special
Studies  Project] briefing should take place during  the  already
scheduled White House meeting of July 16 rather than following it
as  previously  intended.  More  precise  arrangements  will   be
explained to you upon your arrival. Your concurrence in the above
change of arrangements is assumed" (Friedman, 1987).

 The   Cutler/Twining  memo,  as  it  would  be  called  in   the
controversies  that  erupted  after  Moore  released  the   MJ-12
document to the world in the spring of 1987, is the only official
document-not  to  be  confused with such  disputed  ones  as  the
November  17, 1980, Aquarius document-to mention MJ-12.  (Several
critics   of  the  MJ-12  affair  have  questioned   the   memo's
authenticity  as well, but so far without  unambiguous  success.)
The  memo does not, of course, say what the MJ12 Special  Studies
Project was.

MJ-12  Goes  Public: Just prior to Moore's release of  the  MJ-12
briefing  paper,  another copy was leaked  to  British  ufologist
Timothy Good, who took his copy to the press. The first newspaper
article  on it appeared in the London Observer of May  31,  1987,
and  soon  it was the subject of pieces in the  New  York  Times,
Washington  Post and ABC-TV's Nightline. It was  also  denounced,
not  altogether persuasively, both by professional debunkers  and
by  many  ufologists. The dispute would rage  without  resolution
well  into 1989, when critics discovered that President  Truman's
signature on the September 24, 1947, executive order (appended to
the  briefing  paper)  was  exactly  like  his  signature  on  an
undisputed, UFO-unrelated October 1, 1947, letter to his  science
adviser  (and  supposed  MJ-12  member)  Vannevar  Bush.  To  all
appearances  a  forger had appended a real signature  to  a  fake
letter.   The   MJ-12  document  began  to  look   like   another
disinformation scheme.

 Although acutely aware of the mass of disinformation circulating
throughout  the UFO community, Moore remained convinced  that  at
least some of the information his own sources were giving him was
authentic. In 1988 he provided two of his sources, "Falcon" (Sgt.
Doty according to some) and "Condor" (later claimed to be  former
U.S. Air Force Capt. Robert Collins), to a television  production
company.  (Moore  and  Shandera had given them  avian  names  and
called the sources collectively "the birds.") UFO Cover-up . .  .
Live, a two-hour program, aired in October 1988, with Falcon  and
Condor,  their faces shaded, their voices altered,  relating  the
same  tales with which they had regaled Moore and  Shandera.  The
show,  almost universally judged a laughable  embarrassment,  was
most  remembered for the informants' statements that  the  aliens
favored  ancient Tibetan music and strawberry ice cream.  Critics
found the latter allegation especially hilarious.


Lear's  Conspiracy Theory: Events on the UFO scene were taking  a
yet  more bizarre turn that same year as even wilder tales  began
to circulate. The first to tell them was John Lear, a pilot  with
a background in the CIA and the estranged son of aviation  legend
William  P. Lear. Lear had surfaced two or three  years  earlier,
but  aside  from  his  famous  father  there  seemed  little   to
distinguish  him  from  any of hundreds of other  UFO  buffs  who
subscribe  to  the  field's  publications  and  show  up  at  its
conferences.  But then he started claiming that  unnamed  sources
had  told  him of extraordinary events which made those  told  by
Doty   and  the  birds  sound  like  bland  and   inconsequential
anecdotes.

 According  to Lear, not just a few but dozens of flying  saucers
had  crashed over the years. In 1962 the U.S. government  started
Project  Redlight to find a way to fly the recovered craft,  some
relatively  intact. A similar project exists even now and is  run
out  of  supersecret  military  installation;  one  is  Area   51
(specifically  at a facility called S4) at the Nevada  Test  Site
and  the  other is set up near Dulce, New  Mexico.  These  areas,
unfortunately,  may  no  longer  be  under  the  control  of  the
government  or  even  of the human race. In  the  late  1960s  an
official agency so secret that not even the President may know of
it  had  made  an  agreement with the  aliens.  In  exchange  for
extraterrestrial  technology the secret government  would  permit
(or  at least not interfere with) a limited number of  abductions
of  human beings; the aliens, however, were to provide a list  of
those they planned to kidnap.

 All  went  relatively  well for a few years. Then  in  1973  the
government  discovered that thousands of persons who were not  on
the alien's list were being abducted. The resulting tensions  led
to  an  altercation  in 1978 or 1979. The aliens  held  and  then
killed  44  top  scientists as well as a number  of  Delta  force
troops  who had tried to free them. Ever since, frantic  efforts,
of  which the Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars")  is  the
most  visible manifestation, have been made to develop a  defense
against the extraterrestrials, who are busy putting implants into
abductees  (as  many  as one in 10 Americans)  to  control  their
behavior.  At some time in the near future these people  will  be
used  for some unknown, apparently sinister, alien purpose.  Even
worse  than  all this, though, is the aliens' interest  in  Human
flesh. Sex and other organs are taken from both human beings  and
cattle  and  used  to create androids in giant  vats  located  in
underground   laboratories   at   Area   51   and   Dulce.    The
extraterrestrials,  from  an  ancient race near the  end  of  its
evolution,  also use materials from human body parts as a  method
of biological rejuvenation. ("In order to sustain themselves," he
said, "they use an enzyme or hormonal secretion obtained from the
tissue that they extract from humans and animals. The  secretions
are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and applied on the skin  by
spreading  or dipping parts of their bodies in the solution.  The
body  absorbs the solution, then excretes the waste back  through
the skin" [Berk and Renzi, 1988].)

 One  of Lear's major sources was Bennewitz, who had first  heard
these scary stories from AFOSI personnel at Kirtland in the early
1980s. By this time Bennewitz had become something of a guru to a
small  group  of  UFO enthusiasts, Linda  Howe  among  them,  who
believed  extraterrestrials  were mutilating cattle  and  had  no
trouble  believing they might do the same thing to  people.  Also
Lear,  whose political views are far to the right of center,  was
linking  his  UFO  beliefs  with  conspiracy  theories  about   a
malevolent secret American government which was attempting to use
the  aliens  for its own purposes, including enslavement  of  the
world's  people  through drug addiction. A considerable  body  of
rightwing conspiracy literature, some with barely-concealed anti-
Semitic  overtones, was making similar charges. Lear himself  was
not anti-Semitic, but he did share conspiracy beliefs with  those
who were.

 Another  of  his claimed sources was an unnamed  physicist  who,
Lear  claimed, had actually worked at S4. To the many  ufologists
who  rejected Lear's stories as paranoid, lunatic  or  fabricated
(though  not by the patently-sincere Lear), there was  widespread
skepticism  about this physicist's existence. It turned out  that
he did indeed exist. His name is Robert Lazar, who, according  to
a  story  broken  by reporter George Knapp  on  KLAS-TV,  the  ABC
affiliate  in Las Vegas, on November 11 and 13, 1989,  claims  to
have worked on alien technology projects at Area 51. Lazar, whose
story  is  being investigated by both ufologists  and  mainstream
journalists,  has  not endorsed Lear's claims  about  human-alien
treaties,  man-eating  ETs or any of the rest and  has  distanced
himself from Lear and his associates. His claims, while fantastic
by most standards, are modest next to Lears.

Cooper's Conspiracy Theory: Soon Lear was joined by someone  with
an  even  bigger  supply of fabulous yarns:  one  Milton  William
Cooper. Cooper surfaced on December 18, 1988, when his account of
the  fantastic  secrets he learned while a  Naval  petty  officer
appeared  on a computer network subscribed to by  ufologists  and
others interested in anomalous phenomena. Cooper said that  while
working  as  a quartermaster with an intelligence team  for  Adm.


Bernard  Clarey, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Meet,  in  the
early  1970s he saw two documents, Project Grudge Special  Report
13 and a Majority briefing. (In conventional UFO history,  Grudge
was  the  second public Air Force UFO  project,  superseding  the
original Sign, in early 1949 and lasting until late 1951, when it
was  renamed  Blue Book. Whereas Sign investigators at  one  time
concluded UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin--a conclusion  the
Air  force  leadership found unacceptable--Grudge,  as  its  name
suggests coincidentally or otherwise, was known for its hostility
to the idea of UFOs and for its eagerness to assign  conventional
explanations,  warranted  or otherwise, to the  sighting  reports
that came its way.) Cooper's account of what was in these reports
is  much  like  the by-now familiar  story  of  crashes,  bodies,
contacts and projects, with some elaborations. Moreover, he  said
the  aliens  were called "ALFs" (which as any  television  viewer
knows,  stands for Alien Life forms) and the "M" in MJ-12 is  for
Majority not Majestic. Later he would say he had seen photographs
of aliens, including a type he called the "big-nosed  grays"-like
those  that  supposedly landed at Holloman in 1964 or  1971.  The
U.S.  government  was in contact with them  and  alien-technology
projects were going on at Area 51.

 If  this sounded like a rehash of Moore and Lear, that was  only
because  Cooper  had yet to pull out all the stops.  On  May  23,
1989,  Cooper  produced  a 25-page  document  titled  The  Secret
Government:  The  Origin,  Identity  And  Purpose  of  MJ-12.  He
presented  it  as a lecture in Las Vegas a few  weeks  later.  In
Cooper's version of the evolving legend, the "secret government,"
an  unscrupulous  group  of covert  CIA  and  other  intelligence
operatives who keep many of their activities sealed from even the
President's  knowledge, runs the country. One of its  first  acts
was  to murder one-time Secretary of Defense (and  alleged  early
MJ-12  member)  James Forrestal the death was made to  look  like
suicide-because  he  threatened  to  expose  the  UFO   cover-up.
Nonetheless,  President  Truman, fearing an invasion  from  outer
space, kept other nations, including the Soviet Union, abreast of
developments. But keeping all this secret was a real problem,  so
an  international  secret  society known  as  the  Bilderbergers,
headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, was formed. Soon it  became
a  secret world government and "now controls everything,"  Cooper
said.

 All the while flying saucers were dropping like flies out of the
heavens.  In  1953  there were 10 crashes in  the  United  States
alone.  Also  that  year, astronomers  observed  huge  spaceships
heading  toward the earth and in time entering into orbit  around
the   equator.   Project   Plato  was   established   to   effect
communication with these new aliens. One of the ships landed  and
a  face-to-face  meeting  took place, and  plans  for  diplomatic
relations  were  laid. Meanwhile a race of  human-looking  aliens
warned  the U.S. government that the new visitors were not to  be
trusted  and  that  if  the government got  rid  of  its  nuclear
weapons,  the  human  aliens  would  help  us  in  our  spiritual
development,  which  would  keep  us  from  destroying  ourselves
through wars and environmental pollution. The government rejected
these overtures.

 The big-nosed grays, the ones who had been orbiting the equator,
landed  again, this time at Holloman AFB, in 1954 and reached  an
agreement with the U.S. government. These beings stated that they
were from a dying planet that orbits Betelguese. At some point in
the  not too distant future, they said, they would have to  leave
there  for good. A second meeting took place not long  afterwards
at Edwards AFB in California. This time President Eisenhower  was
there  to  sign  a  formal treaty and to  meet  the  first  alien
ambassador,  "His Omnipotent Highness Krlll,"  pronounced  Krill.
He, in common with his fellow space travelers, wore a  trilateral
insignia  on  his  uniform;  the  same  design  appears  on   all
Betelguese spacecraft.

 According  to  Cooper's account, the  treaty's  provisions  were
these: Neither side would interfere in the affairs of the  other.
The aliens would abduct humans from time to time and would return
them  unharmed, with no memory of the event. It would  provide  a
list of names of those it was going to take. The U.S.  government
would  keep  the aliens' presence a secret and it  would  receive
advanced  technology from them. The two sides would  exchange  16
individuals  each for the purpose of learning from  and  teaching
each  other. The aliens would stay on earth and the humans  would
go  to the other planet, then return after a specified period  of
time.  The two sides would jointly occupy huge underground  bases
which would be constructed at hidden locations in the Southwest.

 (It  should be noted that the people listed as members of  MJ-12
are  largely  from  the  Council on  Foreign  Relations  and  the
Trilateral Commission. These organizations play a prominent  role
in conspiracy theories of the far right. In a book on the subject
George  Johnson  writes, "After the Holocaust of  World  War  II,
anti-Semitic conspiracy theories became repugnant to all but  the
fringe of the American right. Populist fears of the power of  the
rich  became  focused  instead  on  organizations  that   promote
international capitalism, such as the Trilateral Commission,  the
Council  on Foreign Relations, and the Bilderbergers, a group  of
world  leaders  and businesspeople who held one  of  their  early
conferences on international relations at the Bilderberg Hotel in
the  Netherlands"  [Johnson,  1983].  According  to  Cooper,  the
trilateral emblem is taken directly from the alien flag. He  adds
that  under Presidents Nixon, Ford and Carter MJ-12 became  known
as  the  50  Committee. Under Reagan it  was  renamed  the  PI-40
Committee.)


 By 1955, during the Eisenhower years, Cooper charged,  officials
learned for certain what they had already begun to suspect a year
earlier: that the aliens had broken the treaty before the ink  on
it  had time to dry. They were killing and mutilating both  human
beings  and  animals,  failing  to  supply  a  complete  list  of
abductees, and not returning some of those they had taken. On top
of  that,  they were conspiring with  the  Soviets,  manipulating
society  through  occultism,  witchcraft,  religion  and   secret
organizations.  Eisenhower prepared a secret executive memo,  NSC
5411,  ordering  a  study group of 35  top  members  (the  "Jason
Society")  associated  with the Council on Foreign  Relations  to
"examine  aIl  the  facts,  evidence,  lies,  and  deception  and
discover the truth of the alien question" (Cooper, 1989). Because
the  resulting meetings were held at Quantico Marine  Base,  they
were  called the Quantico meetings. Those participating  included
Edward  Teller, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger  and  Nelson
Rockefeller.

 The  group  decided  that  the  danger  to  established  social,
economic, religious and political institutions was so grave  that
no one must know about the aliens, not even Congress. That  meant
that  alternative sources of funding would have to be  found.  It
also concluded that the aliens were using human organs and tissue
to replenish their deteriorating genetic structure.

 Further, according to Cooper, overtures were made to the  Soviet
Union and other nations so that all the earth could join together
to  deal with the alien menace. Research into  sophisticated  new
weapons  systems commenced. Intelligence sources  penetrated  the
Vatican  hoping to learn the Fatima prophecy which had been  kept
secret  ever  since  1917.  It was  suspected  that  the  Fatima,
Portugal,  "miracle" was an episode of alien manipulation. As  it
turned out, the prophecy stated that in 1992 a child would  unite
the  world under the banner of a false religion. By  1995  people
would  figure  out that he was the Anti-Christ.  That  same  year
World  War  III  would begin when an  alliance  of  Arab  nations
invaded Israel. This would lead to nuclear war in 1999. The  next
four  years would see horrible death and suffering all  over  the
planet. Christ would return in 2011.

 When confronted about this, claimed Cooper, the aliens  candidly
acknowledged it was true. They knew it because they had  traveled
into  the future via time machine and observed it with their  own
eyes.   They   added  that  they  created  us   through   genetic
manipulation. Later the Americans and the Soviets also  developed
time travel and confirmed the Fatima/ET vision of the future.

 In  1957 the Jason group met again, by order of  Eisenhower,  to
decide  what to do. It came up with three alternatives:  (l)  Use
nuclear bombs to blow holes in the stratosphere so that pollution
could  escape  into space. (2) Build a huge  network  of  tunnels
under the earth and save enough human beings of varying cultures,
occupations and talents so that the race could reemerge after the
nuclear  and environmental catastrophes to come. Everybody  else-
i.e.,  the  rest  of  humanity--would  be  left  on  the  surface
presumably to die. (3) Employ alien and terrestrial technology to
leave  earth  and colonize the moon (code name "Adam")  and  Mars
("Eve").  The  first alternative was deemed impractical,  so  the
Americans  and  the  Soviets started working on  the  other  two.
Meanwhile  they  decided  that the population would  have  to  be
controlled,  which  could be done most easily by killing  off  as
many  "undesirables"  as  possible. Thus AIDS  and  other  deadly
diseases  were  introduced into the population. Another  idea  to
raise needed funds was quickly acted on: sell drugs on a  massive
scale.  An  ambitious  young member of  the  Council  on  Foreign
Relations,  a Texas oil-company president named George Bush,  was
put in charge of the project, with the aid of the CIA. "The  plan
worked better than anyone had thought " CooPer said. "The CIA now
controls  all  the worlds [sic] illegal  drug  markets"  (Cooper,
1989).

 Unknown to just about everybody, a secret  American/Soviet/alien
space  base  existed on the dark side of the moon. By  the  early
1960s  human colonies were thriving on the surface of  Mars.  All
the  while the naive people of the earth were led to believe  the
Soviets  and the Americans were something other than the  closest
allies. But Cooper's story got even more bizarre and byzantine.

 He  claimed that in 1963, when President Kennedy found out  some
of  what was going on, he gave an ultimatum to MJ-12: get out  of
the  drug business. He also declared that in 1964 he  would  tell
the  American people about the alien visitation. Agents of  MJ-12
ordered  his assassination. Kennedy was murdered in full view  of
many  hundreds of onlookers, none of whom apparently noticed,  by
the  Secret  Service  agent driving the President's  car  in  the
motorcade.

 In   1969,  reported  Cooper,  a  confrontation  between   human
scientists  and  aliens at the Dulce laboratory resulted  in  the
former's being taken hostage by the latter. Soldiers who tried to
free the scientists were killed, unable to overcome the  superior
alien  weapons.  The  incident  led  to  a  two-year  rupture  in
relations. The alliance was resumed in 1971 and continues to this
day,  even as a vast invisible financial empire run by  the  CIA,
the NSA and the Council on Foreign Relations runs drugs, launders
money and encourages massive street crime so that Americans  will
be  susceptible to gun-control legislation. The CIA has  gone  so
far  as to employ drugs and hypnosis to  cause  mentally-unstable
individuals  to  commit mass murder of schoolchildren  and  other
innocents, the point being to encourage anti-gun hysteria. All of
this  is  part of the plot, aided and abetted by the  mass  media
(also  under  the  secret  government's  control),  to  so  scare
Americans  that they will soon accept the declaration of  martial
law  when  that  happens, people will be rounded up  and  put  in
concentration  camps  already in place. From there they  will  be
flown  to the moon and Mars to work as slave labor in  the  space
colonies.


 The conspirators already run the world. As Cooper put it,  "Even
a cursory investigation by the most inexperienced researcher will
show that the members of the Council on Foreign Relations and the
Trilateral  commission control the major foundations, all of  the
major media and publishing interests, the largest banks, all  the
major  corporations, the - upper echelons of the government,  and
many other vital interests."

Reaction  to  Lear  and  Cooper:  Whereas  Lear  had  felt   some
obligation  to  name  a  source or two, or  at  least  to  mutter
something  about  "unnamed sources," Cooper told  his  lurid  and
outlandish tale as if it were so self-evidently true that sources
or  supporting  data  were irrelevant. And  to  the  enthusiastic
audiences   flocking  to  Cooper's  lectures,  no  evidence   was
necessary.  By  the  fall  of the year  Cooper  was  telling  his
stories--whose  sources  were, in fact,  flying-saucer  folklore,
AFOSI  disinformation  unleashed during  the  Bennewitz  episode,
conspiracy  literature, and outright fiction--to large crowds  of
Californians  willing to pay $l0 or $15 apiece for the thrill  of
being scared silly.

 Lear  and Cooper soon were joined by two other tellers of  tales
of  UFO horrors and Trilateral conspiracies, William English  and
John Grace (who goes under the pseudonym "Val Valarian" and heads
the Nevada Aerial Research Group in Las Vegas).

 Few  if any mainstream ufologists took these  stories  seriously
and at first treated them as something of a bad joke. But when it
became  clear  that  Lear, Cooper  and  company  were  commanding
significant  media  attention and finding a following  among  the
larger  public interested in ufology's fringes, where  a  claim's
inherent  improbability  had never been seen as  an  obstacle  to
believe  in it, the leaders of the UFO community grew  ever  more
alarmed.

 One leader who was not immediately alarmed was Walter H. Andrus,
Jr.,  director of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), one of the  two
largest  UFO organizations in the United States (the other  being
the  J.  Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies  [CUFOS]).  In  1987,
before Lear had proposed what some wags would call the Dark  Side
Hypothesis,  he had offered to host the 1989 MUFON conference  in
Las  Vegas.  Andrus  agreed. But as Lear's  true  beliefs  became
known,  leading  figures  within MUFON  expressed  concern  about
Lear's  role  in the conference. When Andrus  failed  to  respond
quickly, MUFON officials were infuriated.

 Facing  a  possible  palace revolt, Andrus  informed  Lear  that
Cooper, whom Lear had invited to speak at the conference, was not
an  acceptable choice. But to the critics on the MUFON board  and
elsewhere  in  the organization, this was hardly enough.  One  of
them,  longtime  ufologist  Richard Hall,  said  this  was  "like
putting  a  Band-Aid on a hemorrhage" (Hall, 1989). In  a  heated
telephone exchange Andrus called Hall's objections to Lear  "just
one  man's opinion" and claimed support, which turned out not  to
exist,  from other MUFON notables. In a  widely-distributed  open
letter to Andrus, Hall wrote, "Having Lear run the symposium  and
be  a  major speaker at it is comparable to NICAP in  the  1960's
having  George  Adamski  run a NICAP conference!  "  (NICAP,  the
National  Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, of  which
Hall  was executive secretary in the late 1950s and much  of  the
1960s,   was  a  conservative  UFO-research  organization   which
attacked  as  fraudulent the claims of Adamski, who  wrote  books
about his meetings with Venusians and distributed photographs  of
what  he said were their spaceships.) Hall went on, "You seem  to
be going for the colorful and the spectacular rather than for the
critical-minded approach of science; you even expressed the view-
in  effect-that having a panel to question Lear critically  would
be good show biz and the 'highlight' of the symposium. Maybe  so,
but it obviously would dominate the entire program, grab off  all
major  news  media attention, and put UFO research in  the  worst
possible  light." Hall declared, "I am hereby resigning from  the
MUFON Board and I request that my name be removed from all  MUFON
publications or papers that indicate me to be a Board Member."

 Fearing more resignations, Andrus moved to make Lear barely more
than a guest at his own conference. He was not to lecture  there,
as  previously planned, and hosting duties would be handled,  for
the most part, by others. Lear ended up arranging an "alternative
conference" at which he, Cooper, English and Don Ecker  presented
the latest elaborations on the Dark Side Hypothesis.
 Meanwhile  another  storm  was brewing. On  March  1,  1989,  an
Albuquerque   ufologist,  Robert  Hastings,  issued   a   13-page
statement, with 37 pages of appended documents, and mailed it  to
many  of  ufology's most prominent individuals.  Hastings  opened
with these remarks:

 "First,  it  has  been established that  'Falcon,'  one  of  the
principle  [sic]  sources of the MJ-12 material,  is  Richard  C.
Doty,  formerly  attached  to District 17  Air  Force  Office  of
Special  Investigations  (AFOSI)  at  Kirtland  Air  Force  Base,
Albuquerque,  New  Mexico. Sgt. Doty retired from  the  U.S.  Air
Force on October 1, 1988.


 "How do I know that Doty is 'Falcon?' During a recent  telephone
conversation,  Linda  Moulton Howe told me that  when  Sgt.  Doty
invited  her to his office at Kirtland AFB in early  April  1983,
and  showed her a purportedly authentic U.S. government  document
on  UFOs, he identified himself as code-name 'Falcon' and  stated
that it was Bill Moore who had given him that name.

 "Also,  in  early  December  1988,  a  ranking  member  of   the
production   team  responsible  for  the  'UFO  Cover   Up?-Live'
television documentary confirmed that Doty is 'Falcon.' This same
individual  also identified the second MJ-12 source who  appeared
on  the  program,  'Condor'  as Robert  Collins  who  was,  until
recently,  a  Captain in the U.S. Air Force. Like  Doty,  he  was
stationed  at  KAFB  when he left the service  late  last  year."
(Collins,  a scientist, was assigned to the plasma physics  group
at  Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirtland Air Force  Base.
Following his retirement he moved to Indiana and remains actively
interested in UFOs.)

 Hastings   reviewed  evidence  of  Doty's  involvement  in   the
concoction   of  various  questionable  documents  and   stories,
including  the  Ellsworth tale and the Weitzel  affair.  He  also
noted important discrepancies between the paper Howe saw and  the
MJ-12  briefing document. For example, while the first  mentioned
the alleged Aztec crash, the second said nothing about it at all.
Hastings wondered, "[I]f the briefing paper that Sgt. Doty showed
to Linda Howe was genuine, what does that say about the  accuracy
(and  authenticity) of the Eisenhower document? If, on the  other
hand, the former was bogus and was meant to mislead Howe for some
reason,  what  does  that  say  about  Richard  'Falcon'   Doty's
reliability  as  a  source  for  MJ-12  material  as  a   whole?"
(Hastings,  1989). Hastings also had much critical to  say  about
Moore, especially about an incident in which Moore had flashed  a
badge in front of ufologist/cover-up investigator Lee Graham  and
indicated  he  was working with the government on  a  project  to
release  UFO  information. (Moore would characterize  this  as  a
misguided practical joke.)

 Both  Moore  and Doty denied that the latter  was  Falcon.  They
claimed  Doty had been given that pseudonym long after  the  1983
meeting with Howe. Howe, however, stuck by her account. Moore and
Doty said the real Falcon, an older man than Doty had been in the
studio audience as the video of his interview was being broadcast
on  UFO  Cover-up.  .  . Live. Doty himself  was  in  New  Mexico
training with the state police.

Moore's  Confession:  By  mid-1989  the  two  most  controversial
figures in ufology were Moore and Lear. Moore's MUFON lecture  on
July 1 did nothing to quiet his legion of critics. On his arrival
in  Las Vegas, Moore checked into a different hotel from the  one
at which the conference was being held. He already had refused to
submit his paper for publication in the symposium proceedings, so
no  one  knew what he would say. He had also stipulated  that  he
would accept no questions from the floor.

 Moore's speech stunned and angered much of the audience. At  one
point   the  shouts  and  jeers  of  Lear's   partisans   brought
proceedings  to a halt until order was restored.  Moore  finished
and exited immediately. He left Las Vegas not long afterwards.

 In his lecture Moore spoke candidly, for the first time, of  his
part in the counterintelligence operation against Bennewitz.  "My
role  in the affair," he said, "was largely that of a  freelancer
providing information on Paul's current thinking and activities."
Doty,  "faithfully carrying out orders which he personally  found
distasteful," was one of those involved in the effort to  confuse
and  discredit Bennewitz. Because of his success at this  effort,
Moore suggested, Doty was chosen by the real "Falcon" as "liaison
person,  although I really don't know. Frankly, I  don't  believe
that  Doty does either. In my opinion he was simply a pawn  in  a
much larger game, just as I was."

 From  disinformation  passed on by AFOSI sources,  and  his  own
observations  and  guesses,  according to  Moore,  "by  mid-1982"
Bennewitz had put together a story that "contained virtually  all
of  the  elements  found  in the current  crop  of  rumors  being
circulated around the UFO community." Moore was referring to  the
outlandish  tales Lear and Cooper were telling. Moore  said  that
"when  I first ran into the disinformation operation . . .  being
run on Bennewitz . . . [i)t seemed to me . . . I was in a  rather
unique position. There I was with my foot . . . in the door of  a
secret  counterintelligence  game that gave every  appearance  of
being  somehow directly connected to a high-level government  UFO
project, and, judging by the positions of the people I knew to be
directly  involved with it, definitely had something to  do  with
national  security!  There was no way I was going  to  allow  the
opportunity  to  pass me by without learning at  least  something
about  what was going on. . . . I would play  the  disinformation
game,  get  my  hands  dirty just  often  enough  to  lead  those
directing  the  process into believing that I was  doing  exactly
what  they wanted me to do, and all the while continue to  burrow
my  way into the matrix so as to learn as much as possible  about
who  was directing it and why." Some of the same people who  were
passing alleged UFO secrets on to Moore were also involved in the
operation against Bennewitz. Moore knew that some of the material
he  was  getting--essentially  a mild version  of  the  Bennewitz
scenario, without the horror, paranoia and conspiracy--was false,
but  he (along with Jaime Shandera and Stanton Friedman, to  whom
he  confided the cover-up story in June 1982; Friedman,  however,
would  not learn of Moore's role in the Bennewitz  episode  until
seven years later) felt that some of it was probably true,  since
an  invariable  characteristic  of  disinformation  is  that   it
contains some facts. Moore also said that Linda Howe had been the
victim of one of Doty's disinformation operations.

 Before  he stopped cooperating with such schemes in 1984,  Moore
said,  he had given "routine information" to AFOSI about  certain
other  individuals in the UFO community. Subsequently he  claimed
that  during this period this emphasis) "three other  members  of
the  UFO  community . . . were actively doing the same  thing.  I
have  since  learned of a fourth. . . . All  four  are  prominent
individuals   whose   identities,  if  disclosed,   would   cause
considerable  controversy in the UFO community and bring  serious
embarrassment  to two of its major organizations. To the best  of
my  knowledge,  at least two of these people are  still  actively
involved" (Moore, 1989b).

 Although  he would not reveal the identities of  the  government
informants  within  ufology,  Moore gave  the  names  of  several
persons "who were the subject of intelligence community  interest
between 1980 and 1984." They were:

 (1)  Len  Stringfield,  a ufologist known for  his  interest  in
crashed-disc   stories;  in  1980  he  had  been  set  up  by   a
counterintelligence operative who gave him phony pictures of what
purported to be humanoids in cold storage.

 (2) The late Pete Mazzola, whose knowledge of film footage  from
a  never-publicized  Florida UFO case was of  great  interest  to
counterintelligence types. Moore was directed to urge Mazzola  to
send the footage to ufologist Kal Korff (who knew nothing of  the
scheme) for analysis; then Moore would make a copy and pass it on
to  Doty. But Mazzola never got the film, despite  promises,  and
the  incident came to nothing. "I was left with the  impression,"
Moore  wrote,  "that  the  file  had  been  intercepted  and  the
witnesses somehow persuaded to cease communication with Mazzola."

 (3)  Peter  Gersten,  legal counsel  for  Citizens  Against  UFO
Secrecy  (CAUS),  who had spearheaded  a  (largely  unsuccessful)
legal suit against the NSA seeking UFO information.

 (4) Larry Fawcett, an official of CAUS and coauthor of a book on
the cover-up, Clear Intent (1984).

 (5)  James  and  Coral Lorenzen, the  directors  of  the  Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO) periodically "subjects  of
on-again,  off  again interest . . .  mostly  passive  monitoring
rather  than active meddling," according to Moore.  Between  1980
and  1982 APRO employed a "cooperative" secretary who  passed  on
confidential material to counterintelligence personnel.

 (6)  Larry  W. Bryant, who was battling without success  in  the
courts  to have UFO secrets revealed. Moore said, "His name  came
up often in discussions but I never had any direct involvement in
whatever activities revolved around him."

 These revelations sent shock waves through the UFO community. In
September CAUS devoted virtually all of an issue of its  magazine
Just  Cause to a harshly critical review of  Moore's  activities.
Barry  Greenwood  declared that the "outrageousness"  of  Moore's
conduct "cannot be described. Moore, one of the major critics  of
government  secrecy on UFOs, had covertly informed on people  who
thought he was their friend and colleague. Knowing full well that
the  government  people  with whom he  was  dealing  were  active
disinformants,  Moore  pursued  a  relationship  with  them   and
observed  the  deterioration of Paul Bennewitz'[s]  physical  and
mental  health.  . . . Moore reported the effects  of  the  false
information  regularly to some of the very same people  who  were
'doing  it'  to Paul. And Moore boasted in his speech as  to  how
effective it was" (Greenwood, 1989). Greenwood complained further
about  Moore's  admission that on the disastrous Cover-up .  .  .
Live  show Falcon and Condor had said things that they knew  were
untrue.  "In  the rare situation where two hours  of  prime  time
television  are given over to a favorable presentation  of  UFOs,
here we have a fair portion of the last hour wasted in presenting
what  Moore admits to be false data. . . . Yet he saw fit  to  go
ahead and carry on a charade, making UFO research look ridiculous
in  the process. Remarks by Falcon and Condor about  the  aliens'
lifestyle  and  preference for Tibetan music and  strawberry  ice
cream were laughable." So far as Greenwood and CAUS, skeptical of
the MJ-12 briefing document from the first, were concerned, "July
1, 1989, may well be remembered in the history of UFO research as
the day when the 'Majestic 12' story came crashing to Earth in  a
heap of rubble. Cause of death: Suicide!"

 Nonetheless  it  seemed  unlikely that MJ-12,  EBEs,  and  other
cover-up  matters would pass away soon. The Dark Siders  appeared
well  on their way to starting a new occult movement  in  America
and   elsewhere.   Among  movie  conservative   ufologists   many
legitimate  questions about conceivably more substantive  matters
remained  to  be  answered.  A  reinvestigation  of  the  Roswell
incident  by  Don Schmitt and Kevin D. Randle of  CUFOS  produced
what appeared to be solid new evidence of a UFO crash and  cover
up.  The  emergence  of  Robert  Lazar,  who  even  a  mainstream
journalist such as television reporter George Knapp concluded  is
telling  the truth as he knows it possibly suggested a degree  of
substance  to recurrent rumors about developments in Area 51  and
S4.  Even  Moore's  critics were  puzzled  by  the  extraordinary
interest  of  intelligence operatives in ufologists and  the  UFO
phenomenon,   going   back  in  time  long   before   Bennewitz's
interception  of low-frequency signals at Kirtland and  ahead  to
the present. Why go to all this trouble and expense, with so many
persons  over  such a period of time, if there are  no  real  UFO
secrets to protect?

 Moore  says  he is still working with the "birds,"  who  are  as
active as ever. The birds tell him, he says, that  disinformation
is  used  not  only against ufologists  but  even  against  those
insiders like themselves who are privy to the cover-up. Those  in
charge are "going to great lengths to mislead their own  people."
At  one point the birds were told that there is no  substance  to
abduction reports, only to learn later, by accident, that a major
high-level study had been done. "Even people with a need to  know
didn't know about it," he says. "The abduction mess caused a  lot
of  trouble.  There may have been an official  admission  of  the
cover-up by now if the abductions had not come into prominence in
the 1980s."

 As  for  the  stories  of  ongoing  contact  between  the   U.S.
government  and  extraterrestrial biological  entities,  he  says
there is, in his observation, a "pretty good possibility,  better
than three to one," that such a thing is happening. "But I  don't
think  we  can communicate with them. Perhaps we  only  intercept
their communications. Or maybe they communicate with us."

 He  thinks  he  has found MJ-12. "It's not in  a  place  anybody
looked,"  he  says. "Not an agency one would have  expected.  But
when you think about it, it fits there" (Moore, 1990).

 Doty, now a New Mexico State Police officer, was decertified  as
an  AFOSI agent on July 15, 1986, for "misconduct" related to  an
incident  (not  concerned with UFOs) that occurred while  he  was
stationed  in West Germany. In August Doty requested a  discharge
from  the  Air Force and was sent to New Jersey to  be  separated
from  the  service.  But then, Doty  says,  the  Senior  Enlisted
Advisor for AFOSI made a trip to the Military Personnel Center at
Randolph  AFB,  Texas,  and  asked that  Doty  be  reassigned  to
Kirtland,  where  his son lived. In September Col.  Richard  Law,
Commander of AFOSI District 70, rescinded Doty's  decertification
and  assigned  him to Kirtland as a  services  career  specialist
(i.e.,  an  Air Force recruiter). When he left the Air  Force  in
October  1988,  he  was  superintendent  of  the  1606   Services
Squadron.  Doty remains close to Moore and  uncommunicative  with
nearly everyone else. All he will say is that one day a book will
tell  his  side  of  the story and  back  it  up  with  "Official
Government Documents" (Doty, 1989).

Sources:

 Berk, Lynn, and David Renzi. "Former CIA

Pilot,  Others Say Aliens Are Among Us." Las Vegas Sun  (May  22,
1988).

 Cannon,  Martin. "Earth Versus the Flying Saucers:  THe  Amazing
Story of John Lear." UFO Universe 9 (MarcH 1990): 8-12.

 Clark, Jerome. "Editorial: Flying Saucer Fascism." International
UFO Reporter 14, 4 (July/August 1989): 3, 22-23.

 Cooper,  Milton  William.  The Secret  Government:  The  Origin,
Identity,  and Purpose of MJ-12. Fullerton, CA: The  Author,  May
23, 1989.

 Doty, RicHard. Letter to Philip J. Klass (May 24, 1989).

 Emenegger,  Robert.  UFO's Past, Present and Future.  New  York:
Ballantine Books, 1974.

 Friedman, Stanton T. "MJ-12: THe Evidence So Far." International
UFO Reporter 12, 5 (September/October 1987): 13-20.

 Govt.  -Alien Liaison? Top-Secret Documents. New Brunswick,  NJ:
UFO Investigators League, D.d.

 Greenwood,   Barry.  "A  Majestic  Deception."  Just  Cause   20
(September 1989): 1-14.

 Greenwood,  Barry.  "Notes on Peter Gersten's  Meeting  witH  SA
RicHard Doty, 1/83." Just Cause 16 (June 1988): 7.

 Hall,  RicHard  H. Letter to Walter H. Andrus,  Jr.  (MarcH  18,
1989).

 Hastings, Robert. The MJ-12 Affair: Facts, Questions,  Comments.
Albuquerque: THe Author, March 1, 1989.

 Howe, Linda Moulton. An Alien Harvest: Further Evidence  Linking
Animal  Mutilations  and Human Abductions to  Alien  Life  Forms.
Littleton, CO: Linda Moulton Howe Productions, 1989.

 Information  Originally Intended for Those in  the  Intelligence
Community  Who Have a "Need to Know" Clearance  Status.  Canadian
U.F.O. Research Network: Toronto, n.d.

 Johnson,  George.  Architects of Fear: Conspiracy  Theories  and
Paranoia  in American Politics. Los Angeles: Jeremy  P.  Tarcher,
Inc., 1983.

 Maccabee,  Bruce,  ed.  Documents  and  Supporting   Information
Related to Crashed Flying Saucers and Operation Majestic  Twelve.
Mount Rainer, MD: Fund for UFO Research, 1987.

 Moore,  William  L.  "Crashed Saucers:  Evidence  in  Search  of
Proof." In Walter H. Andrus, Jr., and Richard H. Hall, eds. MUFON
1985  UFO Symposium Proceedings, 130-79. Seguin, TX:  Mutual  UfO
Network, Inc., 1985. Rept.: Burbank: The Author, 1985.

 Moore, William L. Interview with Jerome Clark (January 5, 1990).

 Moore,   William  L.  The  Roswell  Investigation:  Update   and
Conclusions  1981. Prescott, AZ: The Author, 1981. Rev. ed.:  The
Roswell  Investigation: New Evidence in the Search for a  crashed
UFO. Prescott, AZ: The Author, 1982.

 Moore,  William L. "UfOs and the U S Government, Part 1."  Focus
4, 4-5-6 (June 30
 1989a): 1-18. '

 Moore, William L. "UfOs and the U S Government, part 11."  Focus
4, 7-8-9 (September 30, 1989b): 1-3.

 Pratt,  Bob. "The Truth About the 'Ellsworth Case.'"  MUFON  UFO
Journal 191 (January 1984) 6-9. '

 Scully, Frank. Behind the Flying Saucers. New York: Henry  Holt,
1950,

 Scully,  Frank.  "What I've Learned Since  Writing  'Behind  the
Flying Saucers.'" Pageant 6 (February 1951): 76-81.

 Steinman,  William  S., with Wendelle C. Stevens. UFO  Crash  at
Aztec: A Well Kept Secret. Tucson, AZ: UFO Photo Archives, 1986.

 Stringfield, Leonard H. "Status Report on Alleged Alien  Cadaver
Photos." MUFON UFO Journal 154 (December 1980): 11-16.

 Todd, Robert G. "MJ-12 Rebuttal." MUFON UFO Journal 261 (January
1990): 17-20.


END
FILE NAME: EBE.DOC

--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: ParaNet Information Service -- Leading UFO Research Network
(1:310/9


----- EOF -----

Don
--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO - Military Airplanes Follow a UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:30:00 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 77
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2725 alt.conspiracy:8317 sci.skeptic:16941





The following article was sent to Jim Greenen, the MUFON state section
leader for the Orlando, Florida chapter of MUFON from the publisher
of "EL VOCERO" Newspaper in San Juan, PR. These articles were in turn
translated by a friend at my workplace, Maricruz Rodriquez and many
thanks for her efforts :-)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------



        Military Airplanes Follow a UFO
        -------------------------------
          by Agustin Munoz EFE Agency

Published in EL VOCERO, San Juan, Puerto Rico - August 30,1991
==============================================================


ADJUNTAS - Residents of Adjuntas say to be witness Wednesday
night of a spectacular presence in the sky when two military
airplanes followed a unidentified flying object. The townspeople
have made demands to the authorities and police of this place.

Tono Perez, resident of Barrio Garzas of Adjuntas said that at
7:00 PM he was on his way home when he noticed a light moved
rapidly, followed by two airplanes he couldn't describe.

Also two other brothers by the name of Belvis communicated with
a local radio station (WPJC) offering the same version.

Airplanes follow it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the most dramatic moment experienced by the neighbors of
Adjuntas happenned at 9:00 PM when they saw a group of airplanes
described as A-7 and F-14 following a lighted UFO, which they
claim flies every night over the town. The spectacular sight
was visioned more clearly in Barrio Yayales-Guilarte, as so
explained by Angel Luis Torres, owner of the residence where
they extablished a UFO observatory.

Torres said that three of the airplanes kept flying continuosly
around the area of Guilarte and then continued the pursuit
around the area of Sector Las Minas, when eight other military
airplanes were returning from (los barrios) Juan Gonzalez and
Pellejas located at the minera zone of Adjuntas.


Incredible for the town
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It was incredible what the towns people saw last night; now
nobody could say that only a few of us saw the flying objects",
expressed Edwin Plaza, a young publisher that participated in
the investigation of UFO's, that was being made by some groups.

This week the Mayor of Adjuntas, Rigoberto Ramos said that
accompanied by his wife,Blanca and the president of the Municipal
Assembly, Cesar Nieves, watched the flying objects over the skies
of this town.

-* EOF *-


Don




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: Confirmed Presence of UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:32:52 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 65
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2726 alt.conspiracy:8318 sci.skeptic:16942







The following article was sent to Jim Greenen, the MUFON state section
leader for the Orlando, Florida chapter of MUFON from the publisher
of "EL VOCERO" Newspaper in San Juan, PR. These articles were in turn
translated by a friend at my workplace, Maricruz Rodriquez and many
thanks go to her for the effort. :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


               Confirmed Presence of UFO's
               ---------------------------

                    by Julio Victor Ramirez
                       Publisher - EL VOCERO


Article from EL VOCERO, San Juan, Puerto Rico September 2, 1991
===============================================================


Lajas- What could be confirmation of the experience lived last
Thursday by the publisher and ten other people who claim they saw
strange lights coming out of the Laguna Cartagena, thirty other
people witnessed the same on Sunday morning. The investigator of
UFO's, Wilson Sosa explained that a blue, red,orange triangle
of lights appeared in the water, lighting up the place.

The extraordinary spectacular started to be seen at 11:00 PM
Saturday until 3:00 AM. In the moment when the incident occurred,
Sosa said that he was in company of the UFO investigators, Jose
Luis Pacheco, Edgar Pacheco, German Castillo, Sonia Acevedo and
Rosy Castillo.

Also in the area of Laguna Cartagena was Hito Ramirez, his wife
Marisol, two of his sons and fourteen other people with them.
Also, two police agents witnessed the event but asked not to be
identified, Sosa said. "This confirms what was published by
EL VOCERO", said Sosa.

Sosa discarded that the lights coming from the lake were reflected
by other lights or luminized fish. "Definately something strange was
there and the authorities have the responsibility to investigate
what was seen", said the investigator.

This caused the attention of people visiting the surrounding area
of the lake to laugh and make jokes about this. "This is something
very serious that should not be taken lightly", said Sosa.

---* End of article *---

Don



--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: Jorge Martin and UFO's over Ramsey AFB
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:37:41 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 82
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2727 alt.conspiracy:8319 sci.skeptic:16943





The following came off the MUFONET UFO echo a few months back..

------- Begin included text --------------------------------------


Message #6970 - BAMA
   Date : 03-Jun-91  0:22
   From : JOHN KOMAR
     To : All
Subject : Ozark UFO Conference: Part 3

         MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             OZARK UFO CONFERENCE RECAP - Part 3
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JORGE MARTIN:

Puerto Rican journalist and editor, Enigma magazine, on "The
Puerto Rico UFO Story", Assistant State Director/MUFON for
Puerto Rico.

Martin presented a detailed, carefully documented account of
a growing UFO phenomenon in southwest Puerto Rico.  Since
April 1967, when a giant UFO was sighted over Ramsey AFB,
UFO activity and government involvement in an increasingly
bizarre series of events has occurred.  It may have climaxed
on the night of December 28, 1988, when a witness took
several photographs of F-14's circling a large UFO.  More
than 60 witnesses from at least three locations watched the
incident in which the F-14's were seen to merge with the UFO
never to be seen again.  This incident was described in the
January, 1990, "MUFON UFO Journal".

The Puerto Rico saga had intensified on May 31, 1987, when
an explosion and tremors, computed to have been 80,000 feet
below Laguna Cartagena, occurred.  Crevasses appeared and
black smoke was reported coming from them.  Further,
witnesses reported people in contamination suits arrived on
the scene and took samples, but the government denies any of
this happened.

Many witnesses described a huge ball of red light falling
slowly into the lagoon at 10:30 pm the night before the
explosion.  For two or three days after the explosion many
witnesses reported huge UFOs in the area.

The area, which had long been contaminated to the point
little wildlife existed, was put off limits to the public
and later acquired by the government as a wildlife
management area.

The Laguna Cartagena area and a nearby small island off the
coast have been a hotbed of UFO activity, with many
sightings and photographs taken by pilots, fishermen,
tourists and others.  UFOs have been seen entering and
rising out of the water.  Several aircraft and pilots have
disappeared under strange circumstances.  Analysis of the
photographs of the UFO with the F-14's shows no evidence of
fraud, but the owner of the negatives has thus far refused
to release them for scientific examination fearing
government confiscation.  The government is expanding it's
holdings around Laguna Cartagena, allegedly to put up a
Voice of America radio station there.  Also, since these
incidents began, the Navy has kept a carrier task force in
the immediate area and six AWAC planes are kept in the area.


--* EOF *--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: AP Article on Laguna Cartagena UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:40:45 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 74
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2728 alt.conspiracy:8320 sci.skeptic:16944






The following article was sent to Jim Greenen, the MUFON state section
leader for the Orlando, Florida chapter of MUFON from the publisher
of "EL VOCERO" Newspaper in San Juan, PR. These articles were in turn
translated by a friend at my workplace, Maricruz Rodriquez and many
Thanks go to her for the efforts. :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------




       OPEN TO THE PUBLIC THE LAGUNA CARTAGENA
       ---------------------------------------
              WITH OR WITHOUT UFO's


From EL VOCERO, San Juan, Puerto Rico, August 5, 1991

(AP) LAJAS - The Laguna Cartagena, National Refuge of Birds
between Lajas and Cabo Rojo, will now be open to the public.
The Federal Agency of game hunting, fishing and wild life has
made the announcement.

The announcement from the Agency of game hunting, fishing and
wild life was made known to the Interior Department of the
United States when residents of the area alleged they saw
unidentified flying objects in that place. They went to the
police to complain.

A lot of people (half a score or 10) went that night to the
coast near La Pargera and Maguayo to observe objects they allege
are UFO's. The police don't confirm or refute those versions.


The Public is invited
---------------------

The Doctor Fred C. Schaffner, Biologist, member of the Federal
Agency, invited the public to visit the immense Laguna of more
than 400 cords (cuerdas per original article) of swamp terrain
and sweet water. It is part of the National Refuge of Birds with
more than 800 cords (cuerdas per original article) of extension.

The Government of Puerto Rico, under the administration of
Governor Rafael Hernandez Colon, acquired the Laguna, that until
1950 served as a refuge for aquatic birds, but in the last decades
was affected by the expanded agriculture.

In the press communique, Schaffner said there's still a collection
of interesting wild life, and they are trying to restore the place
to natural habitat of a lot of species.

But, the public interested in visiting the Laguna Cartagena must be
prepared to confront rustic conditions.

Frank Gaud
Associated Press

--* EOF *--


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: MUFONET message on sightings in PR
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:45:17 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 78
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2729 alt.conspiracy:8321 sci.skeptic:16945



The following came off the MUFONET UFO echo..

----Begin included text ----------------------------------------



Message #8191 - MUFONET
   Date : 23-Sep-91  4:12
   From : JOHN KOMAR
     To : All
Subject : Puerto Rico Sightings

The following message is from Carlos Steffens.  Carlos will post any new
information as it arrives:

Date: 09-22-91  12:27
From: Carlos Steffens
To:   John Komar
Subj: Latin UFOs

     The island is going crazy again!  Multiple sighting of UFOs and
abduction reports.  All this is taking place in the SW part of the
island.  If you remember the photos Jorge showed you, that is the area
where they were taken at.  There have been 2 recent talk shows
regarding the subject and Jorge Martin appeared in both.  Maybe we
should get in contact with him.

     A particaular case involves a man from NY who came to live to PR,
in the SW part of the island (as related to me by my grandmother, last
night).  A group of civil engineers were traveling in a car when they
came upon this man lying on the road.  He was shivering.  He asked for
a doctor and for a priest (she didn't go into details).  This was his
story:

     He was standing in front of his house, during the day, when he
was taken away by these aliens (she provided no details about how he
was taken away).  He said he was examined by these people and that
they gave him some messages.  Among them, were the following:

  1)  that they come in peace;
  2)  to note how they always appear near areas of "clear water".
  (Clear water is a literal translation from Spanish.  Could also
  mean, clean water or fresh water.)

     The man was found pretty far from where he was abducted.  The
media has avoided any mention of cow mutilations in that area,
although I don't know if that subject was covered in the talk shows.
These events have taken place in the last few weeks.

     My grandfather, who is a complete skeptic, told me that some
people have tried to investigate the area but have been hindered by
the US federal government.  Seems they have control of all those
lands.  There are also reports that engineers belonging to NASA are
now visiting the island and working in that restricted part.

     It is hard to emphasize the amount of sightings and their
frequency.  They are becoming very, very common.  However, it should
be noted that nobody has come out publicly with any photos.  There are
burned circles in the grass, like those that are said made by UFOs,
but no photos of the UFOs themselves (it is these rings in the grass
that make me think cow mutilations have happened but have not been
reported).

That is about all the information I have right now.

--* EOF *--


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: MUFONET message on 2 F-14's and UFO's
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:48:16 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 85
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2730 alt.conspiracy:8322 sci.skeptic:16946





The following came off the MUFONET UFO echo...

----Begin included text ------------------------------------------


Message #3894 - MUFONET
   Date : 24-Oct-91 12:42
   From : Carlos Steffens
     To : Greg Larson
Subject : Re: Stevens, pictograms, Billy, et al
Replies : #2314 <-
 GL> Has anyone else heard of this?  Is anyone from
 GL> Puerto Rico that is not a disinformation officer willing to comment on
 GL> all this?

     Hi Greg, I'm from PR but cannot offer to many comments, unfortunately.
The 2 F-14s that disappeared:  I first heard of this when Jorge Martin came to
visit me while in PR.  Seems this triangular-shaped UFO had been making
fly-bys over this 2 towns in PR.  One night, two f-14 appeared and started
harrasing the UFO, i.e. trying to intercept its path, sharp turns in front of
it, etc.  One F-14 got real close to the side of the UFO and disappeared in
mid-air, no explosion was seen or heard, no crash site ever found.  Later, the
other F-14 came at a high speed towards the back of the UFO:

                    ^
                    |           heading
                   /\
                  /  \          UFO
                 ~~~~~~

                   $            F-14
                   ^
     When the F-14 got to the point were it should have collided with the UFO,
it too disappeared.  The UFO then "split in half", the left half heading one
way, the right half heading the opposite way.  According to Martin, somebody
called the base to inquire about the incident and was told that the FAA was
handling the investigation.  The curious thing is that the FAA has publicly
denied the existence of UFOs or their involvement in any such investigations.

     About the abduction you mentioned:  I read the testimony of a man who was
abducted in a similar way but no photos were mentioned.  I heard of another
abduction where the abductee was found in pretty bad shape but no details.  If
I see Jorge this Christmas, I'll ask him.

     Regarding El Yunque:  sightings seem to be very common in the area around
the tropical forest.  There are also a few caverns and huge sinkholes in it.
Flights over El Yunque have also come upon strange sightings.  I saw a photo
taken from the cockpit of a Cessna-type craft while flying over El Yunque.
The subject photographed was moving so fast that it looked as a continuous
light.  The person who took the photograph says they noticed that thing flying
below them, very close to the tree tops, and that it suddenly disappeared into
the tree tops.

     Forest rangers have reported both UFO and alien being encounters.  Rumor
has it that some rangers have been abducted and have thus requested
reassignment (I wonder why) and that there is an unspoken truce.  By this I
mean that when rangers come upon aliens they keep on going w/o investigating.
According, to Martin, the aliens seen in this part are not the typical greys
which are seen in the SW part of the island.

     I wish I had more to tell or more evidence to show but it has been over a
year since I spoke with Jorge Martin and haven't been to PR in about the same
amount of time.

          CarloS

--- Maximus-CBCS v1.02
 * Origin: Baron Carlos's Castle, D.C. // Where The SysOp Isn't A Member
(1:109/160)

--* EOF *--


Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: PUERTO RICO: Close Encounter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:51:24 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 66
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2731 alt.conspiracy:8323 sci.skeptic:16947


The following came off the MUFONET BBS system...

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 07-29-91  09:03
From: Carlos Steffens

     Well, I don't know for sure so I would say no.  I'm not sure they were
real happenings or just dreams.  However, my mother has had two very
interesting encounters.  We (my brother and I) were very young when the first
one happened.  At that time, my brother had an ear infection and this
particular night he was crying because of the pain.

     My mother got up from her bed and went to the kitchen to get the
medicine and realized there was a loud huming sound outside.  She looked out
the window and saw three UFOs hovering a few feet above the posts that carry
the electric wires.  After a few seconds she realized what they were and ran
to our room.  She locked herself there with us until morning broke, when she
went to our grandmother's.  A few days later, there was a news article that
the same night she saw them, there were a lot of reports from all over the
island of UFO sightings.

     She describes what she saw as taking a cup and putting it upside down in
a saucer.  I don't remember if she said they were red or any other color.
However, she did say they were in a "stair" formation:
                             @   - > UFO
                           @
                         @
                         T  - post
                         I  /
     The second one happened less than five years ago.  She was coming from a
wedding in the SW part of the island, reknown for its consistent amount of
UFO sightings and abductions.

     She was driving and one of her aunts was with her.  They were coming
through the expressway when all of a sudden she realized she wasn't in the
expressway anymore.  She was in a road that was used about 20 years ago, when
the expressway didn't exist.  Also she was at the beginning of the road
instead of where she should have been had she started there.  (What I mean
is, she was already an hour into the trip and suddenly she was back in
another road and just at the point she would be if she had been driving for
only 30 min. instead of an hour).

     The most curious thing happened when they looked at their watches.  An
hour and 45 min. had gone by but as far as they knew, they had only been
driving for an hour.  Neither of them can account for those 45 min. nor how
they went from the highway all the way back to that old road.  I suggested
hypnosis but she refuses saying that it might be something related to what
she saw when we were young and that terrified her too much.  She doesn't want
to know what happened.

          CarloS


--* EOF *--

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!cs.uoregon.edu!ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: GIF: Brazilian UFO - 53K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:40:06 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 887
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2732 alt.conspiracy:8324 sci.skeptic:16948



This is an alleged UFO..decide for yourself. Black and White.

-------Cut Here--------------------------------------------------


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&70)$   [

end

----- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!news.bbn.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Encounters of 5th kind
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 03:08:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) says:
>
>George Newell writes:
>
>> 5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
>>               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.
>
>This is when an Earth human somehow contacts an extraterrestrial
>(telepathy, waving, smoke signals, verbal communication, dreams, etc)
             ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Would hitchhiking, and being picked up by an alien be considered a
Close Encounter of the 5th Kind?  :-)   Enquiring minds want to know.


>for the express purpose of coming into face-to-face contact usually,
>but not always, including a ride on the alien`s craft.
>
>-------------------
>  David W. Jones
>  [e-mail] OR
>  uunet!wrs!davidj
>-------------------


Just a bit of alien humor, you know.  Send all flames to /dev/null.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!cooper
From: [e-mail] (ralph.moonen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Encounters of 5th kind
Summary: Here, alien, come to mamma....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 10:44:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
> > George Newell writes:
>
> > > 5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
> > >               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.
>
>      I've tried to do this, so far without success.  Maybe my telepathic
> abilities just aren't up to snuff.

Actually, I just engaged in a very-close encounter of the 69th-kind. No
telepathic stuff either!! You know, just wheeeeee-BANG!!!  Very thrilling.

Of course there are also the encounters of the 9th kind: kicking an alien
in the butt, and the 10th kind: fondling an alien, and a lot more you
don't know about.

--Ralph Moonen
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: PUERTO RICO: Close Encounters
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 12:22:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 22

Don Allen put in a UFO encounter by Carlos S. stating the people
experienced strange passages of time, or not feeling time loss, etc.

This reminds me of the possibility that it may be some type of
time warp (or interference/adjustment on time as we know it).
In the past, I myself have experienced very strange experiences
dealing with time...such as feeling you have slept the entire night,
then waking up at midnight, and someone else going through total
disorientation at the same time (sleepwalking, trying to reach the
door at another location in the room, etc).  When I questioned
all this in a trance channel reading I had once, it was explained
that this was a time warp used or created (I don't remember exact
words) by the lower astral to harm people, etc.

So it is my suspicion that some how, some way, time CAN be altered
(some type of inter-dimensional thing); and perhaps this is what
these people went through when they had their Puerto Rican UFO
Encounter.

There is so much we do not know about and/or understand.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!nanook
From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Summary: Out of Context Quotes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 02:29:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ESKIMO NORTH [phone] SEATTLE WA.
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
> In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> > > if they're so keen to contact us with vital messages.
> > > b) Why they keep on contacting housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics
> > > etc.  Again, if their message is SO important they would surely contact
> > > a leader of state.  There must be some government official, somewhere
> > > who is capable of receiving them.
>
> >      Could be that the aliens would rather share their knowledge with the
> > vast majority of humans that would make good use of it rather than a small
> > minority that would do harm with it.
>
>     So you're suggesting that superior technology has been shared with
> housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics, etc. and they're making good use
> of it?

     You quoted me out of context.

     Had you quoted me in context (and had you read the entire content of
my post), it would have been obvious exactly what I was suggesting.

     My suggestion was that "leaders of state", aka politicians, are self-
centered and would only use anything they could get from aliens to further
screw over the population in general.

     And further I am suggesting that relative to "leaders of state", aka
politicians, that "housewives, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics" are
more credible, trustworthy, etc.

     In short, I couldn't think of a worse portion of mandkind to give
superior technology to than politicians.  I would suggest further that
"housewives, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics", are doing exactly what
the aliens wish to be done with the information, they are sharing it with
the general population rather than hording it for personal gain.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!inetg1!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Those underground objects in Utah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 20:25:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
...
> accurate.)  Peggy Noonan on ParaNet is trying to cover the story for OMNI,
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is this the same Peggy Noonan who wrote _What I Saw At The Revolution_?

Craig

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "It's funny how the colours    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  of the like real world only         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  seem really real when you            IBM Austin: [e-mail] --
--  viddy them on the screen."                      VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
---------------- Anthony Burgess --------------------------------------------
-- off 906/4A-015 zip 9641 ph [phone] tl 678-8068 hm [phone] --
-- IBM Personal Systems Programming,  11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 --
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande
From: [e-mail] (erin s anderson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 18:20:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Erin -
Organization: Indiana University
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Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Oh yes, like destroying the rivers, destroying the oceans, destroying
>the forests, destroying the fields, destrying the air, destroying the
>earth, destroying the humans. What we have gotten is a lot of
>destruction. That was before also, but science have enabled us to
>enhance this process many powers of times.
>Great accomplishment.
>
>Science is not bad, it is the all materialistic philosophy which is
>bad. The application of the science. The lack of guidelines for science.

This is agreed.  Completely.  I think you got me wrong on the above
ideas and I am sorry I came across as such.  I didn't know better
wording.  But science is science.  There is no wqay we could live
without it now.  Too many people rely on it for ir to just dissappear.
And the lines (as you stated) are not the ones we should be following in.

>The western world is blind, cannot see. It applies its material
>knowledge on anything, but cannot see the result. The science of God
>will give our society eyes, and we will actually see things as they
>are. That will be the success of our culture.

Define 'Western World'.  You have included a lot of people in that statement.

>Do we really need aliens from other planets to come to tell us to open
>our eyes? [...] why don't they share [advanced tech.] with us? Maybe
>because we are blind and foolish, and would just use it for our own
>destruction.

Or maybe they wouldn't want to have to deal with complete idiots such
as half of the human race...

>If they would tell us how reality is really constructed, we would
>immediately reject it, because it is not backed up by our "science".

But if they could define reality, wouldn't it be understood by the
wise who would study it?  And anyway, religion hasn't had any pure
fact stuff in it either.  What does the cross mean to people?  To the
Christians, it is a reference to Christ, but it is nothing special.
It was a symbol.  A human-thought reference to a time period within
Jesus' life.  Nothing more.  ANd they (a lot of Christians) believe it
to be a powerful symbol.  But I didn't see God pronounce it a symbol
to hold.
    And I still hold on the idea that the Bible is probably as
wrong as it is right.  You show me God's signature on the Bible, and
I'll believe it.  Otherwise, it's of a human mind, hand, and thought.
And humans make big errors when telling a story that involves them.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande
From: [e-mail] (erin s anderson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 18:47:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Indiana University
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>Advance disclaimer: I am not a Bible-pounder.  In fact, I don't like
>reading it (though I AM Christian, so I'm familiar with it...)

Cool!  This is what a Christian should (more than likely) be!  There
needs to be more out there that don't use it (the Bible) to the horrid
extremes it has been used to in the past.

[Discussion of definitions of words in the Bible...]

>An interesting point... you know that line, "It is harder for a rich man to
>enter the kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a
>needle"?  I once read somewhere (and if anyone else has a source, I'd be
>eternally grateful) that the original word wasn't "camel".  More along the
>lines of "ship's rigging".  There was a mistranslation somewhere.  And it
>fascinates me that, even though this error has been discovered, it hasn't
>been corrected.
>
>On the other hand, don't discount mythology as being useless. [...]

>I don't think religion and science are as incompatible as everybody says.
>Some physicists say that if quantum theory is true, then quantum-level
>uncertainties must be unknown even to God, and therefore there is no God,
>since God knows all.  But I think that such uncertainties are the perfect
>opportunity for God to stick his finger in.  After all, if Schroedinger's
>Cat had an equal probability of being dead or alive when you opened the box,
>who made the choice?

Ack!  Do I word things wrong?  Science and Religion should walk hand
in hand when dealing with the universe.  (As long as no one will be
pig-headed about it.)  I never said they weren't compatible.  I agree
that the Quantum theory is quite the harsh blow to God.  Actually, I
am sorry it hasn't been proven correct.  It would be interesting to
see how the hard-cores deal with it.

>I'm not saying that this IS the way it works.  Just that there are ways to
>reconcile religion and science.

I am pleased how you can keep yourself from saying "I am right".  I am
happy to know there are some people out there thinking over what they
are saying.  It makes the future a little brighter.  I wish there were
more people out there like that.

>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>religion is the study of everything else.

Well put, but I think there is more than just physical, and religious
studies.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!widener!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 16:47:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
|>
|> I'm not saying that this IS the way it works.  Just that there are ways to
|> reconcile religion and science.
|>

The only thing preventing their mutual reconciliation is the their mutual
inflexability.

bill

--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GIF: Here's what a GREY looks like - 14K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 17:22:48 GMT
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Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Lines: 17
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2741 alt.conspiracy:8331 sci.skeptic:16961

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
> This is a reproduction of your "typical" (if there is such a thing)
> GREY alien. Black and White.
>
> ------ Cut Here --------------------------------------------------

Obvious fakery.  How could you represent a GREY alien in black
and white?

-Eric "A dithering idiot" Shafto

--
*Eric Shafto             * Sometimes, I think we are alone.  Sometimes I  *
*Institute for the       * think we are not.  In either case, the thought *
*    Learning Sciences   * is quite staggering.                           *
*Northwestern University *     -- R. Buckminster Fuller                   *
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 20:57:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (erin s anderson) writes:
>I agree that the Quantum theory is quite the harsh blow to God.  Actually, I
>am sorry it hasn't been proven correct.  It would be interesting to see how
>the hard-cores deal with it.

You exhibit here a fundamental misunderstanding of a fundamental aspect of
science.  There is no way that ANY scientific theory can ever be "proven
correct."  To do so, we'd have to test it in all possible circumstances.  That
is impossible.  We can and do require that for us to accept a scientific theory
as accurate that it fits all known data.  The best that we can hope for is that
it EXPLAINS all known data.  Quantum theory meets (to the best of my knowledge)
the requirement, and we're unlikely to see ANY theory in the near future that
meets the desideratum.  There is quite a bit of evidence that QM is correct.
Transistors, nuclear magnetic resonance (and its application, the magnetic
resonance imager), and lasers, to name just a few things, can, at present, be
explained ONLY by quantum mechanics.  Now, the Copenhagen Interpretation, on
the other hand, seems to be an irrelevency tacked on by people who are unable
to look at a system and say simply "This is how it works," but who, for some
reason, feel the need to be able to say "And this is what it means."  The
best-known example of the application of the Copenhagen Interpretation is
Schrvdinger's Cat.  In this, we have physicists claiming that the theory tells
us what's going on in a state which is, by definition of the thought
experiment, unobservable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 22:41:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 23
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 29 Oct 91 02:29:53 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> > >      Could be that the aliens would rather share their knowledge with the
> > > vast majority of humans that would make good use of it rather than a small
> > > minority that would do harm with it.
> >
> >     So you're suggesting that superior technology has been shared with
> > housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics, etc. and they're making good use
> > of it?
>
>      You quoted me out of context.

 (stuff deleted)

>      In short, I couldn't think of a worse portion of mandkind to give
> superior technology to than politicians.  I would suggest further that
> "housewives, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics", are doing exactly what
> the aliens wish to be done with the information, they are sharing it with
> the general population rather than hording it for personal gain.

    I agree with your opinion of politicians. Can you share any examples of
superior technology that has been given to and is being correctly used by
housewives, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics, or anyone else?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 23:11:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 94

In article <[e-mail]> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:


Im sorry. Im really sorry. Im terribly sorry and repentant. I feel just
awful. I cant believe I have this opinion. Please, like, Im really
sorry. Forgive me. OK?



>
>> It is my feeling/intuition that there are in fact not only physical
>> visitations of UFOs occurring on this planet at this time, but also
>> some type of inter-dimensional consciousness ones occurring for which
>> we at present time have no explanation (scientifically).  Nevertheless,
>> it is still occurring (my FEELING...I have no PROOF)...I simply FEEL.
>
>    Then I'll just have to take your word for it.
>


  Simply feeling things absolves you from the need to provide data which
can be verified by others. I dont buy this position. You can only
sell this opinion to those who have no strong opinion themselves. When
you say, "I have no PROOF", you are saying you agree that you could never
convince anyone else the knowledge you possess is valid. If this is true,
your knowledge or data may very well be of inconsequential importance,
or even more possibly, may be manufactured within your own thinking. The
fact that it cannot be demonstrated to others means that you cannot prove
to any of us that you have not manufactured it. In other words, you
cannot prove to us you are telling stories.

  Now, believe it or not, I make no judgement here as to whether or not
I think your information is correct, or valid, or anything else. Everything
you say may be true and someday we may all realize it. On the other hand,
history has taught us to instinctively mistrust people who ask us to believe
statements that seem to fall outside the realm of standard experience. For
instance, when you hear, "You will get 300% return on your money every
month for the next sixty two years" you dismiss this. This is a survival
reflex. You can hardly blame anyone for implicitly dismissing such
statements.

  There has been a lot of talk about belief and faith and channeling
and grey aliens on this net. There has been bashing of common scientific
practice on this net. So be it. However, I have never met a scientist
worth his salt who claimed he/she conclusively proved or disproved the
existance of god, aliens, or extra-sensory abilities. There is
a healthy degree of skepticism in the scientific community. This is predicated
on a burden of proof. To be "true" scientifically, a theory or position
must be reproducable and defendable in terms understandable by other humans.
Consequently, compared to the total knowledge possible to a human, the
bulk of scientific knowledge at the moment is rather small.
We can only conclusively prove a very small number of things. We dont
know EXACTLY how far away quasars are. We don't know if there really exist
Black Holes. We don't really know what matter or light is made out of.
We're not really sure how gravity works or if viruses are alive.
However, our current explanations suffice as a foundation for us to
learn more about our universe.

 There is nothing in the history of humanity that suggests we can gain
information useful to the living beings of planet earth from people who
cannot pass on experience, information, or data to others. Just "Feeling",
isnt good enough. Forgive me, if you can.






>> I am a FEELER.  In healing work, I trust my feelings and instincts
>> an it is amazing what can happen when I do.  And my inner feeling is
>> that all types of things are happening at this time in history which
>> has to do with expansion of consciousness.
>
>    Do you by any chance charge a fee for this work?
>

  I admit I have already read your response to this question. I want to
add that the reason it is asked is for the reason I have stated above.
The presentation of your information seems familiar: geared toward the
generation of personal income, which is the only possible use for
information which cannot be shared with others.

 Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

 Sorry, but I dont believe you. Dont take it personally.

 Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 19:12:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
>Semjase, a 300 year old artifact from a Pleiadean museum.  I have
>seen pictures of it and what is supposed to have done.  It is some

Were the pictures good enough to guess anything about how it operates?

>I spoke with a man who has a friend that lived near an unnamed U.S. Government
>base that was testing beam weapons that vaporized thick metal plates.    Our
>technology, or theirs?

I thought we already had lasers that could do that.  The problem seems to
be that the vaporized metal flowing out of the hole blocks the beam.  The
solution, the last time I heard (and it was a few years ago at least), is
to use a pulsed beam.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Billy Meier
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 19:22:00 GMT
References: <1991Oct27.161324.22784@anasaz>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 15

In article <1991Oct27.161324.22784@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>]Yes.    I have been in correspondence with him and his group.  I have a
>]friend that spent a day with him about three weeks ago.  He seems to be a
>]little ``flipped out''.  He indicated that he had 13 attempts on his life,
>]plus many psychic attacks.
>        ^^^^^^^psychotic?

Actually, Meier *is* starting to sound a little like a certain Bennewitz...

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: PHENOMICON: ATLANTA'S ALTERNATIVE CONVENTION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 04:10:48 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 8
Xref: ns-mx alt.slack:1554 alt.alien.visitors:2747 alt.conspiracy:8338




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Announcement: PHENOMICON: ATLANTA'S ALTERNATIVE CONVENTION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 04:17:44 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 69
Xref: ns-mx alt.slack:1555 alt.alien.visitors:2748 alt.conspiracy:8339



(2nd try)

This announcement comes off the MUFONET UFO echo...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Message #5389 - MUFONET
   Date : 28-Oct-91 23:32
   From : JOHN KOMAR
     To : All
Subject : Conference news-Wire
         MUFONET-BBS NETWORK  -  MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                   CONVENTION NEWS - WIRE
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

       PHENOMICON: ATLANTA'S ALTERNATIVE CONVENTION

Location: Power's Ferry Holiday Inn
Dates:    November 1-3, 1991
Speakers:
         Robert Anton Wilson; Co-author of Illuminatus &
author of Cosmic Trigger, the Historical Illuminatus series,
Schrodinger's Cat & more will speak on Quantum Philosophy &
participate in a debate with author Richard Shaffer.

         Bill Cooper; will lecture & present workshops on
the UFO Government Coverup Conspiracy.

         Robyn Quail; on abductees & hypnotic regression.

         Don Ware; of MUFON on UFOs & their implications on
world religions.

         Mark Jaeger, Charlie Pilcher, Caryl Dennis; a
three-part UFO History of the World.

         Tricia McCannon; on Native American Beliefs in the
Plieades.

         Ivan Stang; on BOB & Jehovah, etc.

Alternative Costume Contest: categories include Underground
comic, Aliens (Grey, Nordic, etc.), Men-in-Black, Sub-Genius
Historical Conspiracy characters.

Amateur Film Making contest.

Contact:  PhenomiCon, P.O. Box 12141, Atlanta, GA 30355
         phone [phone]


---
 * Origin: MUTUAL-UFO NETWORK - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK 901-785-4943 (1:123/26)

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!cs.umu.se!afrodite!jan
From: [e-mail] (Jan T}ngring)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <jan.688748978@afrodite>
Date: 29 Oct 91 15:09:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Organization: Dep. of Info.Proc, Umea Univ., Sweden
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16977 talk.religion.newage:7469 alt.atheism:17010 alt.alien.visitors:2749 alt.paranormal:3526

[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>
>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>religion is the study of everything else.
>>
>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles

To be more precise about how different disciplines relate to REALITY:
Science deals with predictions of the behaviour of it.
Engineering creates tools for shaping it at our will.
Philosophy is about understanding it.
Art is for experiencing it.
Religion is for escaping it.
  _____________ ________________
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  /____/ \    \  /  \    \   \
  \    \/_\    \/    \    \  /
   \___________/      \____\/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 00:47:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes:
> In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> What are you skeptics really looking for?  My bet is:  your own
>> immortality.
>
> ...........Skepticism is a tool that keeps a clear-minded person from getting
> caught up in the brambles of every doctrine of the little messiahs who seem to
> appear almost daily.  Everyone who is looking for truth should be labeled a
> skeptic.  It is a very sad thing when a person crosses from open-minded
> skepticism into the darkness of blind cynicism but it is even worse to see
> someone loose the power to think critically and swallow up any form of
> teaching that flatters them.  Skeptimism is the first step toward
> investigating truth, not the alternate route.  No matter how much you talk
> around it, the fact stands that the things have been discussed here (visitors
> from other worlds, telepathic communication) should be objectivly obvious
> before anyone appends them to their belief system.

I agree. Sceptical attitudes along with preparedness to be shown wrong are
necessary basis for the search for truth.

I would also add that anyone who is not prepared to *continually* examine their
beliefs and modify them in the light of provable facts has a closed mind, and
is beyond help. Constant (re)examination is the only path to true knowledge.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!mcdphx!hrc!gtx!al
From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 20:03:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:16985 alt.paranormal:3527 alt.alien.visitors:2751 talk.religion.newage:7471

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
#On the other hand, don't discount mythology as being useless.  It had to be
#based on something.  For example, the Bible says that Lucifer fell to Earth
#in a ball of fire.  Classical mythology says Vulcan fell to Earth in a ball of
#fire.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  Or maybe something happened.  A meteor, perhaps.
#But a meteor signifacant enough to figure into mythology?  How about the
#meteor which killed the dinosaurs?  Why not?

How would the story have been kept alive for the 60+ million years between
the event and the emergence of the first human?

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al         [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!bcc.ac.uk!ucjtrjf
From: [e-mail] (Jonny Farringdon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: REPORT: _The Summer 1991 Crop Circles: The Data Emerges_
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 12:31:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2752 alt.conspiracy:8341 sci.skeptic:16986

In the UK last week one of the more respected news/documentary progs
chatted to the author of the plasma vortex theory + the uk psychics
(grouping). Letting them both have their say.

...

Later, they (invited by the wesswx hoax'ers) filmed a hoax. This
was going to be made anyway, by the Southampton University bods.
Both the Plasma Vortex chap and the psychics (complete with dousing
rods) claimed the site (plane circle with 3 smaller circles arround it)
for their own theory, indeed as classic examples of their theory.

--The field was choesn ar random at short notice, farmer approved--

It just so happened that the field has on a 3 line-lay, and near a hill.



I make no comment on this other than restate it for those who cant watch
UK tv, it being interesting in that it was the originator of the plasma
vortex theory who like the very organised psychics were caught out.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PHENOMICON: ATLANTA'S ALTERNATIVE CONVENTION
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 15:35:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 7
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 30 Oct 91 04:10:48 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?


    So what's supposed to happen in October of 1992?  I thought the Xists
weren't coming until July '96.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: GIF: Here's what a GREY looks like - 14K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 15:42:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2754 alt.conspiracy:8348 sci.skeptic:16992
Originator: grante@aquarius
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

[e-mail] (Eric Shafto):
> Obvious fakery.  How could you represent a GREY alien in black
> and white?
>
> -Eric "A dithering idiot" Shafto
           ^^^^^^^^^
Almost slipped that one past me, but I got it, I got it.


--
Grant Edwards                                  |Yow! Mary Tyler Moore's
Rosemount Inc.                                 |SEVENTH HUSBAND is wearing my
                                               |DACRON TANK TOP in a cheap
[e-mail]                  |hotel in HONOLULU!
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air (Re: Hi There)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 16:41:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David M. Schiff) writes...
>There was an article in a recent issue of Science and it was
>mentioned that most scientists won't have anything to do with
>it because they're afraid that if their name is associated with it
>it could hurt their reputations and careers.
>So, I agree with you, it really is too bad that society is polarized
>like this and it probably is due in large part to these extremist twits.

From what you are saying, it is due to fear and ego.. not "extremist twits"
If scientists were more interesting in finding truth and less interested in
their "reputations and careers" then we'd find common ground.  Just another
case of putting the self first... ego before truth.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 16:42:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 13


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes...
>"Our world has grown cold from lack of love."

Sounds true to me, Kathy... somewhere in the middle there is common ground.
May we all meet in balance to save our world and our selves.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 21:03:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes...
>For me, I do not even try to follow UFO stories anymore, I simply
>accept they are here and exist.  But what I AM interested in is
>discovering where all this ET stuff will take us...that is my interest.
>I have no interest or desire to try to disprove the actual physical
>sightings and visitations.
>

First contact, Kathy ... and soon.

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!lynx!vesta.unm.edu!storm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: reply EG
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 23:26:40 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 25



>There is an article in "INTERAVIA" (mai/1956, Page 373) about >"Electro-Gravitation".
>
>The claim of this article is that Towsend T. Brown is experimenting
>on a propulsion system which enabled the first prototype of a flight
>model (An Aluminum Disk about 10 cm diameter) to move with a speed of about 19 >km/h.
>The energy source of the propulsion is simply very hihgh direct voltage.
>Towsend T. Brown's assumption is that the gravitation field can be
>influenced localy with strong electromagnetic fields. It is further
>claimed that humans for example beeing in such a fligtmodel with this
>propulsion system would not be forced by accleration.
>
>In the year 56, this seems to be a very interresting subject also for
>several companys, which tryed to make money with it. But altough the
>article in INTERAVIA seems to be so hopefull I didn't new anything
>about it by now.

>Does somebody now what happened to that? (Not what might have happened !)
>
>H A K A N   K A Y A L


I would like very much to have a copy of that article.  Here at UNM we only
go back to 1885.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!lynx!vesta.unm.edu!storm
From: [e-mail] (The Watcher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 23:53:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] ()
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 6

Some of you do nothing on this service but attempt to discredit or destroy
through your use of the RE:.  If you can not come up with anything new to say
or at least an honest question, please be silent.  If you have a personal
gripe with someones beliefs please Email it to them and stop using this service
as your personal bashing grounds.  Out of 186 postings there are probablly no
more than 20 real articles or questions; the rest are just bashings.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 02:31:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 27

[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
>Some of you do nothing on this service but attempt to discredit or destroy
>through your use of the RE:.

Do you have proof of this?  Next time, "do your research and learn some
facts!"

>If you can not come up with anything new to say
>or at least an honest question, please be silent.

What about my 1st amendment rights?  Are you encouraging people to stay
silent when they have something to say?  I suppose you'd like to be a
fascist pig, also?!?

>If you have a personal
>gripe with someones beliefs please Email it to them and stop using this service
>as your personal bashing grounds.  Out of 186 postings there are probablly no
>more than 20 real articles or questions; the rest are just bashings.

This is number 166.

jesting,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (Dean Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 03:51:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Distribution: na
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 6
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

>[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
>Some of you do nothing on this service but attempt to discredit or destroy
>through your use of the RE:.
>If you can not come up with anything new to say
>or at least an honest question, please be silent.
re we allowed to answer questions? Or should this be done through e-mail too?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 03:43:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay)
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>>>[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:

>>>>as your personal bashing grounds.  Out of 186 postings there are probablly no
>>>>more than 20 real articles or questions; the rest are just bashings.
>>>
>>>This is number 166.
>>
>>No it isn't!
>
>IS TOO!

ISN'T!!!

                    -- Kibo

--
.............................................................................
James "Kibo" Parry      [e-mail]    Independent graphic designer
271 Dartmouth St. #3D                         (specialty: logos & corporate
Boston, MA 02116          [phone]      identities) and type designer.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 04:13:28 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Dinse) writes...
>
>     In short, I couldn't think of a worse portion of mandkind to give
>superior technology to than politicians.  I would suggest further that
>"housewives, ex-drug addicts, and schizophrenics", are doing exactly what
>the aliens wish to be done with the information, they are sharing it with
>the general population rather than hording it for personal gain.

You are a very smart man.  Stick around ... things are about to get real
interesting.... and soon. :-)

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: EG
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 15:35:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Hakan Kayal) writes:
>There is an article in "INTERAVIA" (mai/1956, Page 373) about "Electro-Gravitation".
>
>The claim of this article is that Towsend T. Brown is experimenting
>on a propulsion system which enabled the first prototype of a flight
>model (An Aluminum Disk about 10 cm diameter) to move with a speed of about 19 km/h.
>The energy source of the propulsion is simply very hihgh direct voltage.
>Towsend T. Brown's assumption is that the gravitation field can be
>influenced localy with strong electromagnetic fields. It is further
>claimed that humans for example beeing in such a fligtmodel with this
>propulsion system would not be forced by accleration.
>
>Does somebody now what happened to that? (Not what might have happened !)

Brown eventually worked up to disks around three feet in diameter, I think.
But the problem as I understand it is that despite the speed exhibited
by the models, the effect isn't strong enough to lift its own power supply.
(Think about it:  the transformer alone would probably be unwieldly,
to say nothing of the generator.)  Brown flew his disks around a pole on a
tether, with power being fed down the tether.

I've never heard of any tests to determine whether his claim of being free
from acceleration effects was valid.  Has anyone?

There's a chapter on Brown and his experiments in "The Philadelphia
Experiment" by William Moore and Charles Berlitz.  Moore was selling copies
of Brown's notebooks for a while, but no longer is.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Those underground objects in Utah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 16:11:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Craig Becker) writes:
>Is this the same Peggy Noonan who wrote _What I Saw At The Revolution_?

I don't know, I'm not sure what that is.  If you're talking about one of
Reagan's speechwriters, I don't think they're the same Peggy Noonan.  She's
had brief articles in Omni before.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 07:05:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[..]                       Stick around ... things are about to get real
>interesting.... and soon. :-)

Could you be more specific?  You've hinted in at least one
other posting that something would happen, as have some others.
Personally, I would be truly delighted to get concrete evidence
for the existance of extrasolar inteligence.  Certainly some
really interesting political changes have occured in the past
year, and more yet to occur.  Are you implying something else?
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 07:22:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17023 alt.paranormal:3531 alt.alien.visitors:2767 talk.religion.newage:7482

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:

>    Does fallout count as a direct effect or indirect? The people
>on the Lucky Dragon died after being exposed to the fallout of an H Bomb test,
>didn't they?

I would define fallout as indirect, but exposure to radiation from the
blast as direct.  I'm not that familiar with this case, perhaps I'm
wrong.  I'm sure at least some people have died as an indirect result
thermonuclear explosions in the form of fallout (after several years).
Now that I think about it, although the US may not have killed anyone
with thermonukes, the other countries that have developed them (USSR,
China, probably India, Israel, and the several others in the club), may
have killed some people with them.

Perhaps I should qualify my statement with military use only.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meiers Background
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Oct 91 21:38:20 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 381

Okay, okay.  Due to popular request I will post some of Wendelle Stevens book
UFO ... Contact From the Pleiades: Supplementry Investigation Report. Published
in 1989. I would like to indicate that this book is privately published and not
in large quantities.  As Wendelle once told me he publishes mainly for his
friends. Since he publishes it himself the cost of the book is a little more
than it could be.  But I consider the information priceless.  Wendelle has done
us all a great service by notating and editing Meiers contact notes.  Wendelle
combines his 30 plus years of experience into the annotations which, I consider,
makes his book twice as valuable. I had the opportunity of seeing the English
version of Meiers German contact notes offered by Meiers community and it was
the most difficult reading I ever attempted.  In fact I gave up on trying to
read them, except for a few juicy parts that Wendelle decided not to publish.  I
chose this part of the book so people could get some background on Meier, see
how Wendelle writes and background on the investigation. I will post a few
conservations between Meier and Semjase in the future. Enjoy! Don Showen BTW if
you enjoy this how about sending Wendelle a Thank you note for both writing it
and giving me permission to post. I have put certain parts that I consider
important in ALL CAPS. A note to you nonbelievers.  Try to put your belief
systems and judgements aside while reading this.  Then after finishing it let
your mind snap shut again.
Don Showen

The following is Copyrighted by Wendelle Stevens ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Reprinted
with permission. Reprinted from the book UFO ... Contact From the Pleiades:
Supplementry Investigation Report. Published in 1989. available from UFO PHOTO
ARCHIVES P.O. Box 17206 Tucson, Arizona 85710



INTRODUCTION

"Unidentified Flying Objects are a very serious subject which we must study
fully. We appeal to all viewers to send us details of any observations of
strange flying craft seen over the territories of the Soviet Union. This is a
serious challenge to Science, and we need the help of all Soviet citizens."

Dr. Felix Zigel, Moscow Aviation Institute, on TV, 10 November 1967

Ten years after my investigation of the phenomenal UFO contacts from the Pleiades
in Switzerland began,  (in the early part of September 1976),  I feel as
qualified as any to assess the validity and accuracy of what I discovered and
reported.

I  have marked scores of typographical errors in my master copy of my
Preliminary Report of Investigation published in 1982, and a couple of dates had
to be corrected,  and some phrases,  some paragraphs, and even a couple of
pages, had to be corrected, but I have found little that was incorrectly
reported then, and I find little now. That report was the culmination of a
series of reports updated annually since 1978. At the time of publication the
contacts were still going on and so there were some things that were not
included there because they were still developing. Also we chose to begin that
report with the beginning of Semjase's contacts with Mr. Meier,  although that
was not the first Earth contacts carried out by Semjase nor was it the first
contacts with extraterrestrial entities by Eduard Meier.

Once that published report was released we, and I personally, came under attack
constantly from every quarter and all levels. The most vicious put-downs came
from the UFO clubs  and organizations themselves, both official and unofficial,
which should have been the very ones to get in there and really get to the truth
of the matter. I never saw any of them there in 81 days altogether that I spent
living on the property or in the vicinity carrying out my own investigations. My
later associates collectively spent more than twice that amount of time and they
never saw any other serious researchers either.

May I assure you that I would never have spent the 2nd day, nor made any other
trip to investigate a hoax. I am not attracted by fantasy and science fiction,
and I abhor hoax and deliberate fraud. On the other hand, to attribute the
magnitude and scope of the exhibitions, mass  demonstrations,  physical evidence
and data as a fraud on my part is flattery indeed.

We do not seek, nor do I have any urge to persuade any of you to accept what I
offer here without question. We simply state what we found and what we believe
for those who are interested in knowing that much. You may accept what you
choose and reject any and all of this as you please. I personally accept nothing
without questioning it and knowing exactly why I do or do not believe, and I
recommend this to all.

We have been accused of being victimized by somebody else's fraud in this case,
and then passing it on in our reports. If that is the situation then the
perpetrators number in the scores, of different sources, many completely unknown
to all the others. Some trick, I would say, and clearly beyond the little Swiss
farmer. If that were the case, he has staged same sights we have seen, and same
phenomena we have observed and experienced, that go far beyond the special
effects capabilities of the biggest movie studios in the world -- and all with
no money, no resources, no known confederates, no technicians or aids of any
kind, and in a poor and simple rural area of Switzerland where everybody knows
what all the rest are doing.

That report aroused the ire and enmity of the whole UFO community, mainly
because such enmity was actively orchestrated by the better known UFO clubs
then, such as APRO, MUFON, ICUON and others, possibly through local jealously.
All you need do is read their bulletins to verify this. Several offered to take
control of the investigation for me if I would just turn over my notes and
contacts to them. Other free lancers came to me with the same offer. I could not
accept the offers from any, because what I was seeing was too big to be managed
on a part time basis by same club simultaneously distracted by many other
things. I took it to an intelligence contact who at first showed interest, and
then later (after checking forward) advised that they "already had it",and for
me  to  forget  it.  I  then  took it to a private investigative agency,
licensed in Arizona and Internationally, and persuaded them to join me in our
own investigation to see what we could discover for ourselves. One  result was
the  Preliminary  Investigation Report, which was not originally intended for
publication as may be easily seen.

It is also possible that somebody else, relying on the constant UFO club
jealousy and infighting, manipulated events  and  reactions to produce problems
designed to slow us down or to deter completely.

... Not only did we come under fire, but most of the other researchers who
helped us in any way were castigated and criticized to the extent that we were
forced to go underground in our research. ...

CHAPTER 1 Asket and the DALs My Preliminary Investigation Report on this case,
published in 1982, began with the commencement of the face-to-face contacts with
Semjase and her team of Pleiadians operating from a great mother-ship, and
Meier's photos of the Pleiadian ships. That was the case we were studying at the
time.

That, however, was not the beginning of Eduard Meier's contacts with
extraterrestrials nor was it the first time he had seen and photographed
unidentified flying objects in the skies of Earth. His first sightings of this
phenomena began when he was a small boy of 5 with his father when they lived in
Bulach on the German border. That happened on 2 June 1942. It was only a
sighting, but he knew then that this whole thing was different, though he was
unaware at that young age that he had accepted an "arrangement" before his
birth. His was a chosen destiny of contacts which was to give him no peace in
this life.

From then on he could often see "traveling stars" when he looked up, mostly at
night but sometimes in daylight too. He distinguished these from the others
because these were sometimes larger and sometimes smaller, and these stars made
abrupt turns, flew zig-zag patterns, and they sometimes just stopped in space.
Remember there were no satellites in those days.

Then in late Autumn of the same year, Meier saw a bigger ball-shaped flying
object traveling at slow speed.

It slowed more and began to slowly descend. gently it came down, its metallic
spherical shape clearly visible. Then, all of a sudden, it just disappeared
without making any noise.

The sightings became more frequent until he began to hear a voice in his head
and saw pictures. In November that same year, shortly before his 6th birthday,
he saw a pear-shaped object  suddenly drop from the sky, and settle gently on
the meadow grass in a woods near their home town of Bulach. An old man took him
into the ship and high above Earth, then brought him back to the same meadow and
let him out. The ship then shot up vertically at high speed until out of sight.

More sightings and communications continued until his 7th birthday on 3 February
1944, when the voice became more personal and told him to work hard from now on
as he would be given knowledge in this manner. The speaker identified himself as
SFATH,  the old man who had taken him aboard the pear-shaped machine earlier.
Six months later, in the Summer of 1944, Sfath returned in the silver
pear-shaped flying object and picked him up again for a four hour session on his
destiny and that of his world in his lifetime. A helmet appliance with many wire
leads attached was used for this inculcation process. He was able to see and
hear overwhelming things and was imparted a great deal of knowledge and told of
events to come, much of which he did not understand at the time. Meier was
returned to the pick-up site and the ship disappeared straight up at high speed
until it was out of sight.

Only a few hours after that experience a new voice began to speak to him
telepathically. This one was young, strong, and full of energy. It was female
and told Meier he could call her ASKET, and that she would be his contact now.

Asket communicated with him regularly from then on, and imparted more phenomenal
knowledge, and then guided his destiny to give him certain experiences in the
next few years to temper him for what was to come. It was she who made it
possible for him to travel his world, and it was she who led him into and
through his trials and many tests to give him the experiences he would need.

Asket told Meier that her origin was in what she called the DAL Universe,
incredibly a counterpart Universe to this of our reality. She said that our
universe existed because of hers and hers because of ours. We were related in
some way because  the two separate Universes had a common  origin,  and that
each existed because of  the other and if one ceased to exist,  the other would
likewise cease to be. There were other universes involved also which further
complicated the situation. An oversimplification would be to consider one an
anti-matter counterpart of the other.

This concept is not entirely unheard of, and has been treated  extensively  in
science fiction. Even orthodox science is recently discovering anti-matter and
opposite realities. Fritjoff Capra discussed the scientific basis for these
opposing realities extensively in his TAO OF PHYSICS, and showed that matter
equations simply do not work out without  taking into account  the opposite or
anti-matter aspect. The Feinman diagrams used to explain particle reactions  in
high energy physics demonstrate this process well, and they are found to be
completely reversible.  When matter is theoretically annihilated in an
acceleration chamber, same of it is only changed into its opposite aspect and
disappears from our reality into that other. Balance is maintained by an
exchange of energy in the form of heat or light.

After a UFO experience many years ago, Anthony Seratites, a Dow Chemical
engineer, was suddenly awakened to a new concept of matter and energy, being
shown, way back then, that there is no ultimate particle in physics as it was
being taught, that what appears to be protons, electrons,  gluons,  muons,
quarks,  neutrinos,  etc., and all  their invisible to us anti-particles, are
nothing more than photon quanta organized in different ways. The photon quanta
are not visible until they become organized into something, and they can just as
easily become organized into an anti-something from our point of view. He
visualized a photon quanta as part of a wave. It had vector and curvature, curl,
or spin. He discovered that the vector could be reversed by simply inverting the
curve, or the curve could be reversed by turning it over at 90 degrees to the
other axis.  In either case, its accumulation into matter was the same but now
opposite or anti-matter.

Seratites' diagram of an electron alone had same 228 parts. He spent years
developing his concepts and diagramed many atoms in a book titled THE STRUCTURAL
NATURE OF MATTER, and then went on to diagram more atoms and same molecules  in
another volume called THE UNIVERSAL FIELD LAW and THE UNIVERSAL LAW OF CREATION
OF MASS/ ENERGY.  both by Anthony D.  Seratites. What he learned was that matter
can be instantly converted to anti-matter by  simply inverting the quanta, which
changes its direction of spin, and that they mutually repel each other and do
not seek to cancel out. The anti-matter world is no more rare than the matter
world, as they are one and the same  in different aspect.  There is as much
antimatter as there is matter and they balance.

Seratites is best known as the inventor of Seran-wrap,  the thinnest, lightest,
strongest, and most vapor resistant of all films up to that time, and it was a
product of his new ideas about chemistry coming out of his new physics. He may
someday be recognized as the father of the renaissance in physics.

He was not alone in these new concepts though. Wilbert B. Smith, B.A, M.A.,
former head of the Canadian Department of Transport's Project Magnet,
entertained similar ideas as he developed what he called his Quadrature Concept,
which was published after his death in 1962 under the title THE NW SCIENCE,
authored by him. He too found that there is no ultimate physical particle; that
all is the result of awareness within the creative consciousness. Simply
awareness in the Tempic Field of the Creative Consciousness produces vector and
curl. That vector and curl is equivalent to a photon quantum, which is the
result of awareness impinging on the Tempic Field of the All.  Simultaneous with
the action of vector and curl comes the reaction of vector and curl energies in
the opposite directions, resulting in opposite manifestation maintaining the
balance in the all. The ultimate result in the physical world is observed as
matter and antimatter. He also concluded that nothing more than awareness
impinging on the Tempic Field of the All Consciousness was the actual first
cause, and the origin of the photon  and  ultimately  matter. Matter is nothing
else than the final stages of  thought  manifest, with energy someplace in
between.

Wilbert B.  Smith became a UFO contactee in 1954 and carried on extensive
dialogues with the extraterrestrial friends visiting him.  It was from these
dialogues that he evolved his Ouadrature Concept to explain the then unknowns in
physics, and came up with ideas very similar to those of Seratites but expressed
in different terms, in which the anti-matter reality was the essential balancing
part.

Then in 1960, before Asket picked Meier up in Switzerland, a South African
electrician, Edward F. White, began to have contact with extraterrestrials who
told him they came from an anti-matter or counterpart universe. When they
learned to navigate the polarity barrier between the two universes,  they were
amazed to discover our life and existence, similar to theirs, in opposite
reality,  and over  time established contact across the barrier and learned to
navigate and explore their antimatter  counterpart--our phenomenal universe.
They also learned to communicate across the barrier and maintained contact with
the Earth man by electromagnetic means, which they carried on for over 25 years.
During that time, over 1,000 hours of verbal dialogue was recorded on audio tape
and preserved.  These  experiences are reported in a 305 page illustrated book
titled UFO CONTACT FROM PLANET KOLDAS, A Cosmic Dialogue, authored by Carl van
Vlierden.

But Eduard Meier knew nothing of this at the time of his contacts with the DALs
who claimed a counterpart universe origin. All he knew was that Asket was
telling him that her DAL Universe was the opposite of ours, and that her people
had learned to navigate what she called the "Time Barrier"  time in this sense
being the kind of vibrations or kind of reality in which they normally existed.
She explained that her native counterpart was much like ours, but that the
heavens and luminaries were all different, however they were of the same
cumulative mass and energy. Once they learned to safely cross the barrier
between  the  two  universes-which  co-exist in time and space--they learned to
navigate and explore ours as well as theirs and they learned much and constantly
transmitted information to their home System

The DALs discovered the Pleiadians before Earth and learned to get along with
and to work compatibly with them,  who were already freely traveling in space.
The DALs shared their technology with the Pleiadians which then allowed
creatures of our universe to visit the DAL Universe in Pleiadian ships.  The
DALs discovered Earth through the Pleiadians and their interests here. Sfath was
a Pleiadian who handed Meier over to Asket for development and preparation for a
future Pleiadian plan. The DALs had an active Earth project going on at that
time. Meier was picked back up in a Pleiadian mission in January 1975 with the
renewed overt contact with him some time after the last of his preparation by
Asket

We reported  those developments in the Preliminary Beport of Investigation.  In
that report we by-passed the earlier preparation by Asket in order to
concentrate on the Pleiadian contacts themselves, a step we have been criticized
for since.

It has now became necessary to retreat and fill in some of the  background
preceding  that  first meeting with Semjase in the meadow in Switzerland. Here
we are speaking only of  the contacts with the Pleiadians in this present
lifetime.

CHAPTER 2 Asket Influences Meier's Preparation


Upon establishing telepathic contact with Meier, Asket took over his education
and preparation where Sfath had left off. It was she who led him through a
series of adventures  designed to toughen him for the adversity to come. It was
she who led him through Africa and the experiences in the French Foreign Legion,
the Desert Caravans, the slavers, revolutionaries and bootleggers; into the
hands of the pirates of the Arabian Sea, and across the Indian Ocean as a sailor
with the freighters to the sub-continent of India. It was Asket who by subtle
influence guided Meier through most of the religions of Europe, Africa and Asia,
joining them one by one in turn in his own search for a belief system acceptable
to him.

Unknown to Meier consciously then was Asket's subsequent statements to him, also
later confirmed by Semjase in the Pleiadian contacts, that he was once an IHWH,
a Pleiadian expeditionary to Earth, with one of the several earlier occupations
of this planet by ancestors of the Pleiadians. He at that earlier time enjoyed
his superior status and the obedience of and exploitation of the primitive Earth
humans.

His activities at that earlier time brought him subsequently into Earth
incarnation as one of the Terrestrial primitives experiencing the oppressed side
of the exploitation, but in his soul he knew the other side as well, even in
those ancient days, and he inspired rebellion against the oppressors and a
movement toward awareness of The Creation as the underlying source of being for
all (within which even the IHWH had their limits).

He became a leader of this silent rebellion, and his name then is recognized
today as one of the prophets of the Old Testament. He incarnated again later as
another to continue the work, and even again after that, more than once,  for
the same purpose, including his present Mission , now an Earth man.

He was often guided in his activities, over the centuries. by those seeking to
help the Pleiadians correct their mistakes, which in present time took the form
of the DAL extradimensionals, and Asket in person.

This is why in Asket's preparation program (for this mission) he was led through
all of the world's great religions,  one after another,  to learn them
thoroughly, AND ALSO ANOTHER REASON WHY HE WAS LED AWAY FROM FORMAL EDUCATION AT
A YOUNG AGE -- TO REDUCE THE CONTAMINATION OF CONCEPTS BY THE ORTHODOX EARTH
LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEFS. He was severely tested, physically and mentally,
to toughen him for the trials of this mission.

He actually experienced most of the principal Earth religions today, from the
inside, all of which, according to his  information,  are descended from the
less than benevolent Pleiadian extraterrestrials of that ancient past.

This is one reason for Meier's harsh challenges to the fundamentalist beliefs,
much of which we have edited out of our version of the Pleiadian Contact Notes,
but which may be read in their original German language by those so interested.

We are pretty sure that this information will not be well received, because the
entrenched orthodox beliefs are still here, though now being exploited by Earth
men for  their own gain.  Knowing this and revealing it has become a great
danger to our contactee and many of those associated with him.

Because of these previous contacts with the DAL extradimensionals and his
awakened awareness, Eduard Meier was not entirely surprised when the contacts
with Semjase and her team - reformed IHWHs - began, although it came earlier
than expected.

This  is also another reason, and the real one, why these contacts could not be
expanded to include just any other Earth humans, or be transferred to somebody
else. There are however,  others,  like Eduard Meier, who are here doing similar
things for similar reasons, but their missions are equally impossible to
transfer to another.

Eduard Meier has been given adequate proof of the validity of all these things,
but he is not permitted to use  it  to  persuade  any  other  human  being
against his own will. Meier's primary instrument of validity is the collection
of certain photographs of the extraterrestrial spacecraft which will never be
duplicated. We may add here that there are photographs which have also been
prepared as an "escape",  if and when that should become necessary. WE ARE NOT
PERMITTED TO POINT THEM OUT AS  IT  VIOLATES  THE  FREEDOM  OF  CHOICE  RULE
WITHIN THE FREE WILL ASPECTS OF EACH INDIVIDUAL. IT IS FOR THIS SAME REASON THAT
ALL POSITIVE AND INDISPUTABLE PROOF HAS BEEN WITHHELD BY THE EXTRATERRESTRIALS
THEMSELVES, AND WHEN ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BECAME PROVABLE CAME INTO THE HANDS OF
MEIER, IT WAS TAKEN BY THE PLEIADIANS, THUS YOU ARE ALL ENTIRELY FREE TO CHOOSE
WITHOUT THE COERCIVE INFLUENCE OF POSITIVE EVIDENCE. THAT WAS ALSO THE REASON
BEHIND OUR INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE PLEIADIANS NOT TO TRY TO REBUT ANY KINDS OF
CHARGES MADE AGAINST THIS CASE BY ANTAGONISTS. THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR
PREFERRED JUDGMENTS IN THEIR OWN FREE WILL. This may not be for them, and that
is OK. Meier also has freedom of choice in how he treats this whole thing. He is
not bound in any way and may get out any time by an act of will, but, they warn,
if he does, it is forever...a step that he hesitates to take because so much of
his past is bound up in this.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano
From: [e-mail] (Steve - Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 07:44:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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God, I hate to sound skeptical BUT!!!
This story almost reminds me of an older 70's Sci-Fi flick called
"Laser Blast" where a kid finds this object that he puts on his arm
and turns out to be a laser, so this kid just goes on a shooting rampage
until the owners (who happen to be these lizard type aliens) get it back.

Just thought I would put in my obscure .2 quids worth.


Steve Graziano
[e-mail] (new address maybe coming soon)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meier visits eternity
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 09:35:12 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 113

The following is Copyrighted by Wendelle Stevens ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Reprinted
with permission. Reprinted from the book Message From the Pleiades:

available from
UFO PHOTO ARCHIVES
P.O. Box 17206
Tucson, Arizona 85710

Semjase-  239/ Earth humans still don't know very many things. 240/ But now we
have to interrupt our conversation, because my father has finished
his preparations for the great leap. 244/ And as I am already speaking of
such, then I want to ask you something:  In a few minutes, we will jump for
seven minutes into the "eternity", as you call it.  245/  The feelings and
sensations there are completely otherwise than in normal existence in material
life. 246/ For that reason it is also not possible for us to receive your
thoughts and feelings with proper concentration.   247/ In consequence of
which neither I nor my father, nor any of us, could later repeat for you your
feelings and thoughts, so that you could write them down.   248/ If you
nevertheless wish to do this, then there is a chance on a technical basis.

Meier-  Of course I am interested in remembering my feelings, but, am I not
able to do this myself?

Semjase-  249/ But surely...  250/ But you know that your own ability to
remember is not developed so highly that you can repeat word for word from
memory. 251/  That as well is the case for us, for which we need technical
assistance for true word repeats.

Meier-  I understand.  What do you suggest then?  Naturally  I am interested
in writing everything in detail.

Semjase-  252/  That's not difficult.   253/  The booths, which you can see
there, beside the screens, are equipped with all necessary means,  to  store
up feelings and thoughts.(15) 254/  The thought impulses received are stored
in a special computer and can later, as may be desired, be repeated word for
word from it.  255/  The helmet, shapable and adaptable in size, which you see
there, is equipped with very fine sondes and is as well covered by a special,
fine-meshed net of sondes which pick up every kind of energy and transforms it
into impulses which are then transmitted to the computer where they are
registered and stored.   256/  The energy of thoughts and feelings is measured
in very high values and can be  received only through those instruments.  257/
The energies of feelings and thoughts exist only in very high frequency
fields, or hyper-frequencies.   258/ To now be able to register your thoughts
and feelings, it is necessary that you place yourself into the chair and lay
the head under the helmet cap, which then will adapt itself automatically to
your head.

Meier-  That's all I have to do?

Semjase-  259/ No, that is not all.   260/ But now place yourself in the
booth. 261/  The great journey starts in just 23 seconds.

Meier-  At your service, Miss General.

(As Semjase explained to me, I quickly sit down inside one of the three
booths, in the extremely comfortable chair.  As soon as I have seated myself,
the peculiar helmet moves over my head and sinks down silently.   It is big
enough that it closes around my whole head, and only leaves my face open, thus
I can see and watch everything.  But the helmet is not touching my head; only
lying close around it, keeping about one and a half centimeters distance to
the skull, as I can see when I place a forefinger between the helmet and the
head. Now I am tense and expectant, for I wonder what is going to happen.
Ptaah and Semjase manipulate the apparatus, and now I can see again how the
fantastic heavens and stars change.   In a fraction of a second they are
nothing more than a whitish milky mass, a shining mass, as I have already seen
in the other hyper-leaps.   But now suddenly as well, this milky whitish
shining is gone and there is darkness. But now what is this? Suddenly all is
merging into a golden color, and now everything is like silver. But - my dear
this glistening light, this beaming shining splendor! Everything is merged
into glistening light - only the glistening light.   It is stronger than all
the suns of the Universe... Dear, oh dear, this glistening light, and it does
not hurt the eyes!  Dear, this must be eternity, the glistening light of the
eternal... but see,  there is nothing besides the eternity; man alive, how
marvelous!  Marvelous?  Man alive, that is itself marvelous.   Eternity and
marvelousness are one and the same.  Only why do I separate it?  Why do I put
the eternity into terms of time?  Time does not exist, and the eternity is
marvelous.   Man,  just what is this?  This tranquility,  this peace -- what
is it?   How could I have achieved this?   Love, oh that deep all encompassing
love. Nothing is there, but LOVE: wonderful, marvelous.  Oh yes, I am, but I
am not. Everything is so deep, and full of love. Of course, I am eternity, and
I am inside of eternity.  How could I ever forget this?  Oh yes, I am a human
being, how can I... why do I forget that?  I am only a guest in eternity - and
those loving voices, calling for me, from where is it coming?  I can see
nothing, only the glistening light, comforting.   Who is calling me?  I see
nothing; man alive, I am nothing any more.  I can't see myself.  I a eternity,
in the eternity.  Oh, how is that, but I don't see with my eyes, still I see
everything.  And I am not listening with my ears, yet I hear everything.  Yes,
the love, how powerful it is, how immense, infinite and wonderful.  Everything
is love and splendor; why doesn't the human being understand this? ... The
calling comes out of the light.  Is it the call of eternity?   Oh how hard it
is... to not think that I am only a guest in eternity, that I am only a human
being.  How painful it is, this being a human.  I do no more want to be. I
want to remain here as eternity inside of eternity... this deep.  Yes, I want
to stay here.  Never again do I want to return.   Here is the existence, the
real existence... How can I feel strange having to return to a material world?
I belong here................................................. Pain, why are
you shaking me?  What is it?

Semjase-  262/ Do you still not understand?

Meier          I - - - Oh yes, of course! - - - Pitiful - very much  pitiful -
why have you brought me back here?

Semjase-  263/ You want to joke, but we have all been inside the timelessness,
and would all like to stay there.  264/ But we are not ready to stay, because
we have to absolve the way of evolution step-by-step - as you also must do,
dear friend. 265/ I know quite well, how painfully your heart aches now, as we
all have experienced the same thing.  266/ But we have to adjust ourselves for
that and do know, that under no circumstances or conditions are we allowed or
able to remain, until we have reached that level of consciousness.  267/ I do
regret very much that you feel disturbed inside, as I can see it on your face.
268/ But you will overcome it, because you can think about it realistically.
269/ For that reason we also took responsibility for this equipment...
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Ptaah and Meier on religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 09:37:03 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 43
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2771 talk.religion.newage:7483

The following is Copyrighted by Wendelle Stevens ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Reprinted
with permission. Reprinted from the book Message From the Pleiades:

available from
UFO PHOTO ARCHIVES
P.O. Box 17206
Tucson, Arizona 85710

Meier-  Yes.  Okay, I thought so.  But what about the pretensions then, that
humans have received messages from Angels or from God, etc., by inspirations?

Ptaah 207/ In a few cases, such inspirations are true, but they never  contain
religious information. 208/ Religions exist solely on your own Earth.  They do
not exist anywhere else in the Universe. 211/ Same space-traveling people have
brought Earth religions to other planets but only for the purpose of studying
them.

Meier-  Those are strong words.  We are told on Earth, especially  by  the
Christians,  that  Jesus Christ  is  the actual master and ruler of all the
worlds in the Universe. He is regarded as a God incarnate and is seen as equal
to The Creation itself.  What can you say about this?

Ptaah  214/ We know these delusions of your world, but consider if it were
true,  which is impossible, then in all probability not the human beings of
Earth would be the race to whom would be allocated the task of publishing a
religion. 216/ As, for many millenniums on many worlds of the Universe, the
Earth human represents the most materialistic creature development, deficient
in spiritual evolution for the run of millenniums.  217/ It is a known fact on
many worlds, that the Earth human being defies  (real)  spiritual growth and
develops  himself only within gross materialism. It would really be a paradox
of supreme magnitude if such an one, among those available, were chosen for
such universal destiny (and he can not even leave his planet or system).  218/
But in spite of this, the Earth humans abrogates to himself the immeasurable
arrogance of this presumption while he revels in his materialistic mania of
which we know no equal.  219/  This, precisely, is a real danger, for as soon
as the Earth human becomes master of the technologies for space-drive and
travels to strange worlds, and brings them by power of his weapons or lies or
deceit under his control, so also will he include in his doing, the crazy
spread of his religion to his conquests,  and the existing universal harmony
will be destroyed.   221/  This means that the still guaranteed peace would be
destroyed by your religions and degenerate to murderous wars and great
destruction.(16) 222/ And just to prevent this occurrence is a great and
difficult mission for spiritually developed space-traveling forms of life...
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ptaah and Meier on religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 12:30:44 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 44

Don Showen recently posted an excerpt from "Message from the
Pleiades" with Meier stating some things about religions, angels,
inspiration, etc.

Since I have been heavily into studying many of the religions
and philosophies, I took interest in this post and intend to
order the book mentioned (thanks, Don).  I suspect at this time
that the real problem has been the distortion of Truth and
truth teachings in many of the religions.  If one searches
deeply enough, he/she begins to see the same one kernel
of truth in all religions (namely, that the Kingdom of Heaven
is within one, or the Self is within, or to contact Source or
Higher Self to GO WITHIN and make the inward journey).  You
see this same thread over and over and over if you research
it deeply enough.  It exists I think because religions somehow
are here in consciousness to help us better understand archetypal
energies that manifest in a person's being (or psyche...or whatever).
This is my thought at this time.

I also feel that the statement that the angelic inspiration is
not about religion...that that should be qualified more, meaning,
religions which have perverted truth or people who have used religions
for their own power and egoic (nafs) drives.  When one starts
sifting the wheat from the chaff he begins to see the ego of mankind
that has existed in religions and begins to then get down to the
real spirit of things.

I would like to thank those of you out there in netland who have
written me privately stating they enjoy my posts and wish me to
post more.  For those who have made negative comments about my
posts/thoughts/feelings you may have noticed that I have given little
energy back to this.  That is because I feel each person must find
his own truth and I am not here to convince you of ANY THING...but
hopefully, only offer my thoughts and feelings on various topics
to those who may be similarly interested and maybe they will think
further about them.  Being a fairly open minded person, if someone
can show me I am incorrect of an assessment of something, I will
take the time to check into or research it (such as was indicated
in that post about studying religions, etc.)

We are complex, multi-dimensional beings, always learning and
growing when we are open to this and remove the blocks.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meier visits eternity
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 12:55:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 56

Don Showen recently posted an account of Meier's 'visiting
eternity'.

This was quite interesting to me.  From what I can gather or
deduce, Meier's had the experience of BE-ING eternity.
Also, I see similarity in what he expresses here being
similar to what the Hindus calls PURE CONSCIOUSNESS
(i.e., "Lead me from the unreal to the real...")

Also, I saw the words about Meier going "this deep"...which
again tells me the inward journey must be a very very DEEP
one WITHIN.

He mentions the "Peace" he felt (reminds me of the the Biblical
statement:  the Peace that passseth all understanding)--
meaning, perhaps, that when one IS this peace, it passes all
brain/mind/intellectual understanding (seems to be along the
lines of getting into the heart deeper, and to read more about
that see the works of Hazrat Inayat Khan wherein he speaks about
the heart, and the mind (I think he says the mind is like the
surface of the heart)--etc.

The words "absolving the way of evolution" were quite interesting.
Makes me ponder and think about creation/evolution...spirit and
matter, etc.

Here is a question for Don Showen?  Who is Ptaah?  Is this the
SAME Egyptian Ptah that I have heard about (I have HIS statue
on my dresser).  He holds a very very interesting staff or
wand.

Maybe it is a power wand (i.e., maybe this is where we get the
idea of a magic wand).  I think the staff he holds is similar
to the staff you see --is it--the insignia of the two serpents
going up the wand (the insignia for medicine)...but it is
not exactly quite like that.

It is my feeling that individuals are gifted in many ways.  I
fully intend to read more of this book when I get it, but it seems
Meier's has an opening that higher beings/etc. have 'contacted'
in him (or in his consciousness) in some way and perhaps manifested
all of his experiences in a physical manner.  But I also feel
that in channelings and certain writings, that dark forces can
oftentimes enter and mislead...the testing is always there for
the being seeking the truth.  I see this over and over again in
so many things I study and research....thus, I think, the importance
of prayer for protection.  If this earth is being fought over
between darkness and light, then this means to me that the
symbol of the yin/yang tells us a pretty big story (notice how
the light goes into the dark, and the dark into the light, and
each contains a circle inside itself).  Maybe that is a very
big truth teaching itself for this planet.  Or is it only an
archetypal energy of sorts being played out in evolution that
eventually, 'through time' will dissolve itself or be 'absolved'???

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 16:40:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc.
Lines: 32


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes:
-In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
->In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes
->>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
->>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
->>>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
->>>>>[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
->>
->>>>>>as your personal bashing grounds.  Out of 186 postings there are probablly no
->>>>>>more than 20 real articles or questions; the rest are just bashings.
->>>>>
->>>>>This is number 166.
->>>>
->>>>No it isn't!
->>>
->>>IS TOO!
->>
->>ISN'T!!!
->
-> IS!
-
- ISN'T

IS!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!vlsi!ulkyvx02.ct.louisville.edu!cl126039
From: [e-mail] (J. GUAN)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the pleiladien transcripts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 15:39:00 GMT
References: <dt4.687824237@pear> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News System)
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Louisville
Lines: 24
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1
Nntp-Posting-Host: ulkyvx02.ct.louisville.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]                   writes...
>Gee, I thought you would never ask. :-)  The Pleiadians are a group of entities
>who are being channeled through a lady named Barbra. Marciniak.  They have
>been coming through for over three years. Their talks are available on cassette
>tapes (over 100).  A friend of mine took the time to transcribe two evenings
>that the Pleiadians gave last year at Stanford Univ. called the Harmonics of
>Frequency response and the Human DNA. I got ahold of a copy and scanned it into
>my computer. It is six files of about 30,000 bytes each and a seventh file that
>includes a list of tapes.  I have been sending the transcripts to those that
>request them by email. Over 120 net folks have asked for and received the
>transcripts by email.  BTW that should be enough to start our own group.
>Although seriously I am considering starting a Family of Light list where
>we could share all this great stuff without the dimly lit dumping on it.
>Anyway the offer is still open.  Send me your email request and I will
>email you the transcripts.  Don Showen, Light Head
>Oh, BTW I am also very into Billie Meier, I have two of the contact notes books
>scanned into the computer with permission from Wendelle Stevens to post stuff
>from the books, I have been pleading with this group for two years to ask about
>stuff I could quote from the contact notes, with no takers.  Hmmm. Maybe I will
>just start posting my favorite conversations between Billie and Samjese. How
>about the trip they took all over the universe?
>Don Showen
Don I would very much like a copy of what ever it is you have, I'm not yet a
total believer but it sounds interesting.  James Vaught
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: WANTED: Ufo GIFs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 01:14:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 11


Earlier this week several articles containing uuencoded GIF files of
UFO's, etc, were posted. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get them all
before the articles were no longer available. The only two that I have
are the 'brazil.gif' and the 'realufo.gif'. There were a couple of
others, and if anyone would be so kind as to e-mail them to me, I
would be very grateful!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!jeko
From: [e-mail] (James Offutt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Summary: Let me add just one more...
Keywords: stupid fish
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 00:07:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il.
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:

>Some of you do nothing on this service but attempt to discredit or destroy
>through your use of the RE:.  If you can not come up with anything new to say
>or at least an honest question, please be silent.  If you have a personal
>gripe with someones beliefs please Email it to them and stop using this service
>as your personal bashing grounds.  Out of 186 postings there are probablly no
>more than 20 real articles or questions; the rest are just bashings.

That's because the controversial topic of this group lends itself to
extreme debate if not outright attack.  Besides, what fun would it be if
everyone agreed with each other?  And what better way to assess your own
beliefs than having to defend them against someone else.

James
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stimpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: GIF Pictures
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Oct 91 23:10:07 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 11

How do I get all these pictures that are posted (source) to work on
my computer?  I have an Amiga, and do I need a special program to compile
the source?

Gary

PS: Leave Mail, don't respond here.

--- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
E-mail: [e-mail]
system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ucsd!ucsbcsl!mustang!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sjs
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Speicher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circle info - PLEASE!
Message-ID: <sjs.688856998@hoodlum>
Date: 30 Oct 91 21:09:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: hoodlum.hood.caltech.edu

I hope this is the right group to post this request.

I would like available sources of information on the Crop Circles.

Thanks,
Stephen
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!hahn
From: [e-mail] (David James Hahn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: What's up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 06:48:44 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 17
Originator: [e-mail]


I  don't understand any of these postings.....How can you be convinced that
there are alien visitors  with no actual proof?  Govt. cirumstantianl proof
doesnt mean anything, they tell you what ever they want.   What you think
they are telling you is "propaganda".  You can never be sure what
you're being told so why argue your point if you have no facts to base anything
on????


    A couple of questions from a person.....................



--
David Hahn                              "It's not easy being good in a
Email : [e-mail]            world that's gone to hell.  "
University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (dhaley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What's up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 08:54:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David James Hahn) writes:
>
>I  don't understand any of these postings.....How can you be convinced that
>there are alien visitors  with no actual proof?  Govt. cirumstantianl proof
>doesnt mean anything, they tell you what ever they want.   What you think
>they are telling you is "propaganda".  You can never be sure what
>you're being told so why argue your point if you have no facts to base anything
>on????
Why is it that senior airforce officials, investigating an alleged UFO crash
would first state that "Yes, It was a UFO", than go on to call it a weather
baloon, and then say that it was a light airplane crash. Weather balloons and
airplane crashes usually don't attract the attention of the military??

Circumstantial proof maybe.... I don't have either dates or Names to back
up these claims, maybe some one out there does. It was a big issue at the time
which was a long time ago..
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:   Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 21:04:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 13


 > The big problem with the model-on-a-stick theory seems to be, why isn't
 > there a break in the glowing blue ring on the bottom of the object?

I have not studied this angle.  That is a good objection.  However, it is also
possible that the model was suspended from the pole.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Richard Hoagland's Face On Mars
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Oct 91 21:09:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 15


 > This reprint would probably be very hard to track down now, but the
 > original articles could be found by looking at the old issues of
 > ASTRONOMY
 > (December 1974 & sometime during 1975).

The publication you refer to is known as "The Zeta Reticuli Incident."  I have
it on disk here, and there are still copies available.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!linus!linus!maestro!gpivar
From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What's up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 13:08:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: maestro.mitre.org

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David James Hahn) writes:
|>
|> I  don't understand any of these postings.....How can you be convinced that
|> there are alien visitors  with no actual proof?  Govt. cirumstantianl proof
|> doesnt mean anything, they tell you what ever they want.   What you think
|> they are telling you is "propaganda".  You can never be sure what
|> you're being told so why argue your point if you have no facts to base anything
|> on????
|>
|>
|>     A couple of questions from a person.....................
|> David Hahn


Using your own premis as basis can I believe what your saying?
--
Greg

--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What's up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 17:20:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 13
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 1 Nov 1991 06:48:44 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>
> I  don't understand any of these postings.....How can you be convinced that
> there are alien visitors  with no actual proof?  Govt. cirumstantianl proof
> doesnt mean anything, they tell you what ever they want.   What you think
> they are telling you is "propaganda".  You can never be sure what
> you're being told so why argue your point if you have no facts to base anything
> on????


    Because UFOlogy is a religion.  While offering tantalizing bits of
evidence, it still requires faith to accept it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.smu.edu!utacfd.uta.edu!utagraph.uta.edu!utasys.uta.edu!xxrami
From: [e-mail] (Rami Zureick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 22:05:24 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Lines: 3
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Nntp-Posting-Host: utasys.uta.edu

From what I read, many UFO's fly around military bases.. they could be space
ships captured somehow as some people claim.. But has anyone tried to
intercept the converstations between the pilots flying around the UFO?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (J. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re^2: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Nov 91 14:55:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Distribution: na
Organization: Tellabs, Inc. Lisle, IL
Lines: 19
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun8d

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brent) writes:
>[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
>>Some of you do nothing on this service but attempt to discredit or destroy
>>through your use of the RE:.
>
>Do you have proof of this?  Next time, "do your research and learn some
>facts!"
>
>>If you can not come up with anything new to say
>>or at least an honest question, please be silent.
>
>What about my 1st amendment rights?  Are you encouraging people to stay
>silent when they have something to say?  I suppose you'd like to be a
>fascist pig, also?!?

As one our great religious leaders has said (paraphrased):

"God told me it's none of your business why I buy whores.  Shut up and
 send me more money.  PUH-RAZE HIM!  Amen."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Nov 91 02:10:11 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 838
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2788 talk.religion.newage:7512 alt.slack:1586




----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [e-mail]
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


                   Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter, Nov\Dec, 1991
                 The East Coast Power Point, Solinus and Kortron
                  SPIRIT BBS 704-297-5973  fido-net # 1:379/703
            Greetings Ascending Star People.   The last newsletter  which
        came through this channel was one of diversity and challenge that
        effects  us all.  Its very nature was difficult to put  into  the
        written  word.   Now that we have discussed  those  scenarios  of
        reality  effecting  our  existence it is time  to  address  other
        things of a less negative nature.

            Many of you  feel  the  presence  of  the Divine Essence  and
        believe this will carry all here on Earth into the most  harmonic
        of  vibrations no matter what the negative forces in control  do.
        This is very true, but only in the aftermath of things now coming
        to a head in their projected, planned and natural occurrence.

             We too have  priorities  in our role  of  creating Heaven on
        Earth.  One of them is the pyramid on Stone Mountain.  Its  func-
        tion  is still veiled in secrecy because of its  profound  impor-
        tance  of regulating in a more controlled way all of the  changes
        coming to Earth.  Metatron,  the cloak of the Father and electron
        in  all  creation, intends this structure to be one of  the  main
        focal  points  for the star grids that will  be  directed  toward
        Earth  during  the events of the upcoming  great  light  changes.
        This will create a natural cleansing of this evolving world.  The
        Trons  are  responsible for creating a smooth transition  in  the
        preliminary  stages.   Once  this is  accomplished  the  Father's
        energy can come in totality and the effect of this cycle of great
        change  will be experienced in a less traumatic way.   A  natural
        rising  of frequencies and energies  will then create  change  on
        Earth and throughout all the fringe universes.

             The importance  of the completion of this project before the
        11.11 cannot be understated as its activation is one of  profound
        importance "in support" of this great event.  If it is not  acti-
        vated  by these dates the dark forces could win a  great  victory
        that  could  prevent a harmonious blending with  the  accelerated
        energies  coming to Earth.  Your continued support is  needed  as
        time is rapidly closing in on these important dates (November 11,
        1991  and January 11, 1992).  We must rapidly take what  we  have
        started  to  its completion; a finished structure, with  a  fully
        activated crystal grid in it for our part in this grand event.

             As of the second week  of October the outside of the pyramid
        was  completed and now three hand made doors are  being  created.
        Much  inside work remains in terms of insulation and  heating  if
        those coming to Stone Mountain for the 11:11 activation in Novem-
        ber  and January are to be comfortable at a 5,000 ft.  elevation.
        A  fireplace  and chimney are needed and planned,  plus  flooring
        over  the sub-flooring, then ceilings and paneling to  cover  the
        insulation.   The  power rod will be installed  and  grounded  to
        Mother Earth and will be tuned to the seventh octave resonance by
        special  disks  which will then support the  crystal  grid  work.
        Many  crystals are still needed so please continue to locate  and
        send  them our way.  We are almost ready for the next step  (com-
        pletion  of  the inside) but the necessary funds are not  in  re-
        serve,  support having waned in October.  We ask that  you  place
        the  completion of this project at the top of your priority  list
        as  we are being severely pushed by a very tight  time  schedule.
        This  is  important beyond mere words and once  this  pyramid  is
        activated all will understand why this structure was built.

             My agreed upon part in the Mission was to build a foundation
        to  help  elevate and harmonize future  transitions.   Many  have
        helped  in  this extensive work in order to assist  our  combined
        group  to  create Heaven on Earth.  In the last twelve  years  on
        Stone  Mountain many obstacles have tested our ability  to  forge
        ahead,  but  we never gave up and thus have  always  successfully
        pulled off our most difficult directives.  Many such  foundations
        are  nearing completion and now is the time for all Starseeds  to
        do  their designated parts, not in isolation and separation,  but
        rather  firmly guided and bonded as "all should be one"  in  this
        endeavor.   This must be accomplished world wide and the network-
        ing for this has now begun on a planetary basis to better  accom-
        plish  "ALL IS ONE".

             Because the foundations  for world communication  are now in
        place  and working a World Commander is now needed to  coordinate
        the active Starseed into a planetary team.  It is not a  position
        to be filled by someone who merely announces the desire to be the
        World Commander.  This will evolve through worldwide  recognition
        and  the acceptance of each country in membership.    (Bite  that
        apple  United Nations.)  This person will be someone who  is  not
        only  willing to take on the task but will be respected  in  that
        capacity.   This is very important as there still  is  resistance
        from  some  regarding the need to be organized  in  this  manner.
        This  can be readily seen within the quadrants which make up  the
        world command as many are still doing their parts as  individuals
        rather  than coordinating their efforts within a team  structure.
        The Command is not designed to be militaristic in nature or  deed
        but  rather it is a way to organize Starseed to  best  accomplish
        the  things  that must be done by all of us while here  on  Earth
        assignment.   This was deemed necessary because only a  few  were
        carrying out their directives.  This resulted in an extreme  work
        load  on  some and much confusion that was  aiding  the  negative
        forces who control life here on Earth through censorship, distor-
        tion and deceit.

             I would like  to interject here some  of the most recent in-
        formation  which has been brought to our attention.   All  groups
        are  being watched.  Spies of the opposing forces are in many  of
        the groups.  They are usually trusted as an integral part of  the
        group but in most cases they create discord by passing  disinfor-
        mation  thus creating confusion as to the true nature of the  job
        at hand. These souls paint nice, pretty pictures that often  lead
        many  down  blind,  dead end alleys.  They bleed  the  intent  of
        others  into  areas of little worth and divert support  from  the
        real  things  we are here to create and promote in  our  combined
        service.  Be careful not to become a follower, but rather  listen
        and  delve  deeper  within to see if truth  is  being  presented.
        Follow only your own inner guidance and hearts.  Many within  our
        forces  are  sheep in their groups and like the masses  they  are
        here  to help are blinded giving their sovereignty to others  who
        wish to have control.  These may not be what they appear to be.

             Some  within the Command  see what is going on by these  at-
        tempts  to  confuse, disrupt and divide our forces  because  they
        know  what is going on, why and what is coming.  It is  difficult
        under  the best of circumstances to inform and then activate  the
        Starseed,  let alone pass information on to the masses.   Efforts
        to make others more aware are continually undermined by impostors
        who  have slipped within our own ranks.  These  entities  present
        themselves  as more knowledgeable and easily influence those  who
        are  not  in touch with their own guidance and their  own  direc-
        tives.   They  will  tell you what they receive is  in  the  best
        interest  of the whole and should be followed.  BEWARE!  Many  of
        these  are  impostors.  There are only a very few  who  get  this
        information; many make such claims but are not as they appear.

              Your inner guidance  is and always has been  your true path
        finder.   It is there to guide you through this maze  of  censor-
        ship, deceit, confusion and corruption.  Those who do not see and
        hear as independent thinkers will soon find they have wasted much
        valuable time and energy involved in false endeavors as a  result
        of  following these masters of deceit.  This is a shame as  their
        energies could have been otherwise channeled into areas of  great
        worth.

             One of my functions  as a commander  is to keep you on track
        in our combined mission here on Earth.  My advice has always been
        to  follow Spirit, your guiding force, when involved with  others
        or  endeavors deemed necessary by them.  Don't even listen to  me
        if your guidance tells you otherwise.  Always ask if what you are
        receiving  is in the radiance of Light and Love.   Remember  each
        polarity,  whether  negative or positive in nature, has  its  own
        masters.  Life  evolves in both aspects and in between.   Do  you
        understand???

            ( Future Shock or Is the Rest of The World Digging In? )

             The  asteroid  is just off of Pluto and large  shuttles  are
        descending and landing in many locations  on Earth.  These  craft
        can be cigar or saucer shaped, pyramidal or triangular in appear-
        ance.   All, except the saucers, are dark in color and are  Draco
        in every aspect.  These craft have been linked with human  abduc-
        tions and mutilations and are now entering Earth's atmosphere  at
        an alarming rate.  This is being reported by other countries that
        censor UFO information less than the U.S.  People in other  coun-
        tries  are  in  the know better than the  average  American.  The
        result of this, when reality hits home, will be future shock  for
        many in the United States.

             Australia  is already digging in, building solid rock apart-
        ments and complexes underground for reasons not yet disclosed  to
        the general public.  Those working on these projects are told not
        to  talk or mingle with each other or imprisonment  will  result.
        This  fact should make many in the U. S. wonder what our  govern-
        ment is keeping from us.  Similar facilities have been construct-
        ed  here and in many other countries and for the most  part  kept
        secret  from the general public.  The Swiss are the least  secre-
        tive about their ongoing project.  They have amassed huge  stock-
        piles  of food and water in underground tunnel  installations  in
        the Swiss Alps which will be open to the public in time of  need.
        Few  countries are as closed as the U. S. on UFO or other  topics
        our newsletters talk about.  How do we know this?  Believe it  or
        not this little newsletter goes all over the world via the bulle-
        tin  board network and subscriptions.  We are constantly  getting
        feedback  and  additional information from our  readership  world
        wide.

             There is even  a  secret  installation  in solid rock twenty
        minutes from the capitol in Washington, DC.  Guess who it's  for?
        The president, his cabinet and cronies.  Those in the know  real-
        ize  this  was not necessarily created for the possibility  of  a
        communist nuclear attack.  Could an invasion from outer space  be
        another reason?

             In the past  during  natural,  cycled  events such as we are
        about to experience many civilizations remained intact by  exist-
        ing in underground installations coming out only after the danger
        had  past.   This  is recorded in their legends  and  lore.  Some
        beings  still live in these underground installations.   For  in-
        stance,  some of my contacts have told me that in  South  America
        many still inhabit underground cities, preferring to stay in  the
        inner Earth.  These people claim the sun puts out radiation  that
        is harmful to all surface life.

             The USSR, it seems, has been having more than its fair share
        of  sightings of large space ships.  We've been told (by what  we
        consider  a  good  source) that they are  experiencing  not  only
        sightings  but  actual landings which could mean that  a  massive
        invasion has already begun.  Some who have returned from the USSR
        stating  this  is actually taking place, have for one  reason  or
        another,  had all of their attempts to release  this  information
        smeared and rebuked by media and on the computer networks  carry-
        ing UFO information.

             The Soviet Union's last Mars probe sent back film footage of
        a  large cigar shaped craft casting a shadow on one of its  moons
        just  before the probe mysteriously disappeared.  Was it  gobbled
        up  by  the cigar shaped object right after sending the  clip  of
        film  back to Earth?  The rest of the world is far ahead  of  the
        U.S.  in allowing its people to know what's going on.  It's  any-
        one's guess why this country still keeps this a secret in view of
        the  world's  more open policy to inform the public.   Japan  has
        even aired information presented by Bill Cooper, Billy Meier  and
        others on national television.

             Have you  noticed  the commercials which now show reptilians
        in  Japanese car ads?  How about the popular children's toys  and
        t.v.  shows:   the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or  the  dinosaur
        show  at  prime time?  I'm sure if you look closely you  too  can
        come up with some additional examples of this.  Is this  sublimi-
        nally and overtly trying to get us used to the reptilians?   Wake
        Up people!!  Is Uncle leading the gullible public down a road  of
        pure  censorship regarding their involvement with the  Greys  and
        Reptilians,  but  at the same time getting us ready for  it?   We
        only know what they want us to know.  Manipulation of the  masses
        through  the media has been going on for a long while.  This  has
        prevented  those  who have been witness to  sightings,  landings,
        abductions and mutilations from being taken seriously because the
        mere  thought of "aliens among us" is far from acceptance by  the
        general public because of media censorship.

                          ( Is Earth A Staging Area? )

             Earth is  the staging area for a very large, technologically
        advanced  group  of space beings that are being sighted  and  are
        landing  in  many locations all around the world.  This  fact  is
        being  kept  secret from the American public.  Could it  be  that
        Orson  Wells' radio show "War of the Worlds" was not a  hoax  and
        that fifty years of being duped is just now coming to our  atten-
        tion  as  the world's greatest cover up?  Did you  know  that  it
        wasn't  so very long after Wells' broadcast that  our  government
        recovered an alien flying saucer near Roswell, New Mexico.

             Earth  is  splitting into  two  separate  worlds even as  we
        speak.   This  is a natural occurrence and should not  be  viewed
        with fear.

             This event is a part of the end time scenarios that the neg-
        ative forces cannot control or stop.  Their only interest in this
        is  keeping  people ignorant to trap as many as possible  in  the
        negative polarity when the two worlds separate. This will  create
        the desired result of their plan.  This will trap many that  then
        can  be  harvested.  They will then leave some behind  that  will
        insure  the  seeding  for future harvests by their  race  in  the
        negative  polarity world.  (Humans are a delicacy in  their  food
        chain).

             If you have read  Matrix II  you may remember the unanswered
        questions asked of certain people "in the know" about this  being
        a garden and refusing to state what was being harvested.  The big
        secret kept under wraps is that Earth was and is a garden used by
        these  creatures on a periodic basis to harvest people  as  food.
        Certain control groups are working with these creatures in  their
        erroneous  belief they won't be taken and these are  keeping  the
        Dracos real intent a secret from as much of Earth's population as
        possible.

             How much longer  can the  truth be hidden?   How much longer
        before you realize something's coming and it's been going on  for
        long  time.   They aren't trying to hide their  presence  as  the
        Hudson  Valley and many other incidents in plain sight  indicate.
        They have been seen flying at very slow speeds over busy highways
        loaded with commuters at rush hour.  These are brazen acts  which
        show little concern or fear of us.


             If  the  government  can keep  the public  in  the  dark  by
        suppressing truth with half-truths with their disinformation cam-
        paign, then when the "invasion" occurs will it be leaked to us by
        the controlled media?  If this happens we will all be in position
        of not having the time or chance to protect ourselves.  They then
        can  cry  national emergency which under a  new  law  immediately
        suspends  the constitution of the United States.  Then  a  police
        state  can occur to take control of the situation.  Picture  cur-
        fews  to  control and avert riots.   Then  picture  concentration
        camps  for those who will cry "collusion" or foul play. All  this
        is  possible and easily accomplished under new legislation  ruled
        on  by  the Supreme Court. (See COURT.TXT on Spirit BBS  in   the
        Political Arena Area).  Did you know that if one is convicted  of
        a  federal offense the government is no longer required to  feed,
        house  or  give sanitary conditions to  those  convicted.   (This
        spells  legalized  concentration camps to me.)   New  legislation
        also states that in certain situations trials aren't even  neces-
        sary  for  up  to five years of confinement.  Who  of  you  could
        survive five years without the above "humane" means provided  for
        your survival?

                 ( All Of The Above Is Beyond Mere Possibility )

             We continue to be  amazed  at the lack  of  response  of our
        readership.  Seldom does anyone call or write to ask us where  we
        get our information.  Do they think it is all "channeled" materi-
        al  brought forth from the Collective Consciousness through  Kor-
        tron.   Indeed,  some of it is, however it is also  verified  and
        added  to  through thousands of pages of information  which  have
        been  researched  by  investigators who are  authorities  in  the
        field.

             Why, we ask,  are most  of you  just reading this newsletter
        but  not even questioning our sources or asking  for  information
        which can help you to substantiate what you read?  Are you equal-
        ly well informed and we are basically verifying what you  already
        know?  Perhaps you are afraid to ask for verification, preferring
        instead to remain vulnerable to the very things you don't know or
        you  fear.   These aliens are not all benign.   They  prefer  you
        remain naive and uninformed; it makes it easier to control  prey.
        They  want to illicit fear in their intended victims - this  pro-
        duces  chaos  and irrational thoughts.  They do not want  you  to
        know  the White Light can protect you and dissolve their  control
        over  you.  Perhaps what is more important is that  many  govern-
        ments of the world are very involved with these beings.  They too
        are  controlled and manipulated by them and they do not wish  the
        masses to know this.

             We have hundreds of files on Spirit Bulletin Board which are
        pieces to the grand puzzle.  We are constantly in search of  more
        information  to  add to this library to disseminate to  you.   We
        want to prepare a catalog listing these files so that our readers
        can access this information by ordering a written copy.  But  few
        of you have even expressed an interest in this idea.  Instead our
        ranks  are  seemingly full of "Lightworkers" who prefer  to  stay
        uninformed  themselves.   Our job as Starseeds is  to  plant  the
        seeds  of light, for where there is light there can be  no  dark-
        ness.  Without information how can we do our job?  We are here to
        let people know there is a choice.

             The pyramid  on Stone Mountain is one way to actually make a
        difference.  It will bring in the higher vibration of Love.  This
        will  bring  in  more Light faster than  anticipated.   The  dark
        forces on Earth cannot exist within this vibration without  being
        transmuted by it.  Doing this fouls up their plans for a harvest.
        This  would prevent them from taking large numbers of people  off
        the more positive Earth.  They need to do this just before  Earth
        splits  into two worlds, but they would have already left  making
        this impossible.

                                ( Earth Changes )

             Due to the instability  of Earth's plates and the increasing
        external  pressure on the core fluids of Earth you can  bet  that
        volcanic eruptions and earthquakes will also increase, perhaps as
        early  as November or December.  (Just as this was being  written
        an earthquake occurred on the Tibet-India border.)  Some of these
        can  be expected to break existing records.  Where and  when  de-
        pends on many things.  An accurate assessment or guess is  impos-
        sible  at this time but it can be surmised that areas hit in  the
        past will get more shocks as they are already weakened.  Activity
        under the seas could start the long anticipated tidal waves.  New
        information  indicates  this is more than a mere  possibility  as
        each  Earth change effects another.  My best advice is,  if  your
        guidance says leave an area then do it.

                                ( The New Grid )

             Some of you are channeling  information  on the new grid in-
        tersection  points.    The new grid will easily handle  the  much
        higher  frequency as the positive aspect of Earth enters  Mansion
        World Reality.  At the same time the negative frequency's  "bond-
        ing  glue" will begin to deteriorate.  Earth's shadow world  will
        then leave to take its place in the now forming fringe  universes
        as  one of the newly formed evolving worlds in a much lower  fre-
        quency.

                      ( The Hybernization of Homo Sapiens )

             There are many  programs fostered by different entities that
        are effecting life on Earth.  At this point I would like to refer
        to  three of these and give you a little more  information  about
        them.

             (1) The Greys are interbreeding  with Homo sapiens in an at-
        tempt  to  save and simultaneously upgrade their  race  which  is
        facing  extinction.  Many of the abductions and  mutilations  are
        the  result of their activities.  They also want Earth  as  their
        new permanent home as their world can no longer support life  and
        they would like to bring all of their planet's inhabitants here.


             (2) The Dracos  are  interbreeding  in order  to establish a
        ground force they can activate in the final hour of their plan to
        overtake  Earth.  Their claim is that this is their world and  we
        are the intruders who must go.  This was and is one of the feared
        scenarios of world governments.

             (3)  Your forbearers, the Pleiadians who seeded Homo sapiens,
        are here to retrieve their existing Starseed and raise them  back
        to  their original hybrid form.  Those that make this program  of
        retrieval  will inhabit the positive aspect reality of Earth  and
        seed other worlds in Mansion World Reality.  All three hybridiza-
        tion  programs  have  been going on since the  beginning  of  the
        1800's.

             Note:  Advanced technology  in the form of implants is being
        used by all three of the above groups.  Each has their own reason
        for doing this.  I will attempt to explain the three as I  under-
        stand them.

             (1) The Greys  use  a less  technologically advanced implant
        than the Dracos or the Star Brothers.  The main function of  this
        is to track those they have inbred following them from one gener-
        ation  to another in order not to loose track of them  increasing
        the  success  of the hybernization.  Some governments  have  been
        involved  with  these activities with them and in  doing  so  are
        receiving  technical information for their own  experimental  im-
        plant  and biological programs.  This has been going on for  many
        years.

             (2)  The Dracos  are also  interbreeding  with  Homo sapiens
        and  have done so since the garden of Eden.  What this  means  is
        that  there  are  many varieties of this hybrid  cross  on  Earth
        although  these breeds are not necessarily loyal to the  invading
        force  or  to those who in earlier times force bred  this  cross.
        Much of this interbreeding has resulted in the hostile nature  of
        man and can be blamed for much of man's inhumanity to man.

             (3) The Pleiadian,  a gentle and loving people, seeded Earth
        when  it was unmolested and a planet of peace, love and  harmony.
        The  first invasion by outside forces led to an evacuation  which
        left  many  of their people behind due to the limited  amount  of
        space  vehicles  available to lift people off.   There  are  many
        legends  which tell of the return of these "gods" from the  stars
        to  help  the people of Earth.  Although a very small  number  of
        Dracos were already present on Earth at that time the much larger
        more  evolved  invading force caused the  Pleiadians  to  evacuate
        because  they had little if any means of defending themselves  at
        that time against such a large hostile force.

             What can be  restored  to the original blueprint has been in
        the  works for awhile.  That is one reason why these hybrids  can
        not  identify  with all the actions of violence  and  destruction
        here on Earth.  These will be evacuated as promised and returned,
        if  they wish, to Earth once the separation of the  two  evolving
        worlds  is  complete, or they may go on to  other  adventures  in
        Mansion World Reality.  The promised return predicted by  ancient
        cultures  is now taking place as a means to step up out  of  this
        hostile  situation  created by the forced  crossbreeding  of  the
        invaders.

             Our hope is that the short explanation and additional infor-
        mation  above will enhance your understanding of part of what  is
        actually  taking  place on Earth at this time.  Do not  let  fear
        alter  your  intent to finish what we came here to  do.   We  are
        eternal beings here to retrieve our brothers and sisters who were
        left  behind long ago.  Remember who you are and your reason  for
        being  here.  In the not too distant past it was not the time  to
        speak  of such things.  Now that I am being allowed to put  these
        words to paper it is my fondest hope all will come to  understand
        their  part  in the Mission and get to the root of  our  intended
        reason for service in the mission.

             We would like  to recommend  the book  "Matrix II" which can
        be  obtained  through Arcturas Book Service, P.  O.  Box  831383,
        Stone Mountain, GA  30083 (write for a free catalog of UFO books,
        etc.).

                          ( Intent - A Word to Ponder )

             If the meaning  and  purpose of the word "intent" was really
        understood  by  people of star origin much of what they  feel  is
        overwhelming in third dimensional reality would not exist.   This
        word is very important as it is your means for external  manifes-
        tation.   For  some time now we have been telling you  that  your
        thoughts  create.  Focused thought energy can create  a  specific
        act, manifest a material form or can result in energy changes  in
        the  universal field.  Once this is understood the  higher,  more
        aware  state  of co-creator will override the  programed,  social
        consciousness  training of third dimensional reality  which  many
        still erroneously cling to in fear.

             The universe  instantly  manifests  energy into your focused
        intent  to create anything your heart desires.  Here at  Orvotron
        we use this universal energy on a constant basis.  The pyramid is
        a good example of this.  I have never lost my focus on it actual-
        ly  being created.  The house we live in is another example.   In
        each  case the means to create either project was  not  initially
        available.  Focused  intent brought both to  manifested  reality.
        I'm sharing this with you because some of you need to study  this
        as  a  way of creating in order to bring  about  your  individual
        parts in the manifestation of Heaven on Earth.

             Try it yourself.   Put the  energy  of the  universe  behind
        every  thought you wish to manifest into reality.  You will  find
        it really works.  In your meditations go a little deeper and  you
        will find you have been using this all your life, but with little
        understanding  of  it.  All that is necessary is to  develop  the
        good habit of using this with full understanding.  Think about it
        as there is great power in these words.  A real understanding  of
        "INTENT" will lift you above hardships and give all you will ever
        need to do your part in the Mission.


             Solinus, a very good student,  can  testify to the fact that
        focused intent really works.  Since she arrived here she has seen
        many  things  seemingly manifested out of thin air.  One  of  her
        first  attempts produced our van which was made to order  in  the
        make, model and year we were looking for at the price we had set.
        It  was even located where her guides said it would be.  She  has
        since  gone on to bring forth  the exact tiller we  were  looking
        for  at  an incredibly low price, and a wood truck the  size  she
        wanted  with  the  power I desired.  We have  used  our  combined
        intent often to create together that which we want in the  physi-
        cal.  Start out with small things if you wish to test this  idea.
        Manifest  parking  places exactly where you need them  to  be,  a
        short  checkout  line  in the grocery store  or  courteous  sales
        people waiting for your arrival.

             All  of us, in one way  or another, are limited by  our  be-
        liefs.   Our social conditioning as to how we live here, how  the
        "system"  works or would have us do it, has severely limited  our
        perception of how to accomplish what we desire.  This social trap
        leads many into hopeless situations of little worth.  By  reawak-
        ening  to  what  you have forgotten, by  deprogramming  and  then
        reprogramming  yourself you will become an example to  those  who
        are  caught  in the illusionary trap which  creates  an  external
        dependency when everything is in you not outside you.

             In order  for you to elevate  to your unlimited, real poten-
        tial you must first learn to focus differently.  This is  nothing
        more  than changing your limited thinking to one where there  are
        no boundaries created by others or yourself.  Begin to notice how
        often you negate what you desire by thinking (or worse yet  stat-
        ing  out loud) that you can't do this or have that; something  is
        too  hard  or difficult to accomplish.  By  merely  noticing  how
        often  you  split your power, loose your focus  and  reduce  your
        intent  you will begin deprogramming and then  reprogramming  the
        way  you think.  Immediately upon noticing that you  are  loosing
        focus  stop,  refocus  your thought or act replacing  it  with  a
        positive affirmation of your desire, then focus your intent  with
        the energy of the universe.

             Changing the way you think  is an  adventure  which will set
        you free of the illusions you believe are the very foundations to
        your  survival.  You are a co-creator god and can manifest  as  a
        sovereign  being anything you need for your existence.   Fear  is
        keeping  you from trying this and will keep you locked  into  the
        unproductive  trap that will continue to allow others to  control
        your life.  You must put fear aside and make the leap in order to
        gain  control  of  your destiny.  If you focus  your  intent  and
        remain unfaltering in your desire, miracles will manifest in your
        life as the new you remembers who and what you are.

             It is your decision  to try  to alter  your thinking in this
        way.   Try  playing  with this idea as though it is  a  new  toy.
        Become  childlike in the discovery and manipulation  of  changing
        the  way you think.  Those who have taken this leap  before  know
        the  joy  of rediscovery that awaits you and will set  you  free.
        These are strange waters, but you must make the effort  necessary
        to  learn to swim.  Practicing will open your awareness and  then
        you will be rewarded as you see what can be accomplished with  so
        little effort.

                         ( Confusion - What Can We Do? )

             When the actual truth  of  the great  deception being played
        upon  you and the masses becomes known you can expect  confusion,
        mixed  reactions  and views about our forces,  the  guardians  of
        truth and love.  This will result from the fact that those creat-
        ing the great illusion will never represent truth and will not be
        responsible for the disinformation they created or the parts they
        have  played.   This will create further confusion for  many  who
        will still believe the system is always telling the truth.

             You can expect  one lie  to surface  after another about the
        presence  of the Lightworkers.  They have that angle  covered  as
        freedom  of the press and speech have fallen under their plan  of
        control and attack that will eventually make speaking out against
        the law.  They will undermine our attempts to aid humanity in its
        darkest hour and many will follow them to the end never realizing
        their folly.  They will all die like a stampeding herd of buffalo
        in a lightning storm  following their leader over a cliff.

             Many of us are  better informed  because we are linked up to
        sources  which  constantly update us on the government  and  your
        rights.  We see where they are taking us and their plan to  abol-
        ish  any form of resistance or communication to inform.  We  have
        been  seeing for some time that our "inalienable rights" are  now
        being  undermined because the populace refuses to police what  is
        taking place or even speak out against these changes when known.

             One source  which has cataloged these changes is Spirit BBS.
        In an effort to keep you informed we constantly update the  mate-
        rial to present potential and actual legislation being considered
        or  voted on which is destroying this country and your rights  as
        citizens.  These are presented in the Political Arena files  area
        and, if used as a resource, could provide individuals and  groups
        with much valid information.

             Spirit  BBS is now  linked up with many bulletin board  net-
        works  throughout the country.  Through a daily exchange of  mes-
        sages  we  are able to communicate with anyone who wants  to  ask
        questions directly and therefore the voice of the "good guys" can
        finally be heard on the UFO networks.  The computer networks  are
        one  of  the last areas not being censored and all who  are  able
        should  use this source to help bring out the little known  truth
        about the Forces of Light.  The feeling on the computer  networks
        are that the good ETs are just a bunch of talk.  I can see  where
        this  attitude arises as there is a general lack  of  information
        reaching  these boards; they are unaware of what we are doing  to
        help and thus believe that most aliens are here, by and large, to
        take  over.  It is a wonderful opportunity to make an impact  and
        put  in  your  input.  We have contacted some of  you  to  submit
        material  for us to put out there, and we need to get  many  more
        involved.


             There are so  many  we are not addressing who are hungry for
        information of a positive, helpful nature.  Spirit BBS gives  you
        the  chance  for your voice to be heard and can help  combat  the
        disinformation  campaign which is undermining what we stand  for.
        Every opportunity we overlook to reach out perpetuates the  false
        picture  and  categorizes  us  with the bad guys.   We  have  set
        ourselves up to be victims of disinformation by allowing only one
        side to be heard.  Please find the courage to help us expose  the
        lies and bring out the truth.

             We  have  spent  much  time  and  effort to get our presence
        known on the networks and we do find others who are interested in
        hearing  from "the other side".  We realize many of you  continue
        to  be  afraid to speak out.  This fear syndrome gives  me  great
        discomfort  as  it  means the grand deception based  in  fear  is
        controlling many of you.  To me the definition of "dead" is total
        inactivity,  hiding from reality or refusing to come out  of  the
        closet.   Unfortunately  many  within our ranks  fall  into  this
        category.  Many are still more concerned with their own  personal
        soul  growth or in finding like minded souls than  making   them-
        selves  known on a more global level.  God is not dead,  nor  are
        those "actually" representing the one God.  It's imperative  that
        we  speak out and refuse to become victims or prey of  those  who
        would put lies out there about us.

                              ( The Money System )

             We   have been telling you that we felt an exchange in  cur-
        rency was imminent.  Due to more current information we now  feel
        the  use of money may go out altogether as another system is  now
        in place worldwide.  Star wars was a hoax.  This satellite system
        was  actually designed to monitor all money transactions  on  the
        planet,  not to destroy incoming missiles.  On the computer  net-
        works  we are tapped into there is a rumor that this  system  was
        built  and  functional as early as 1983, yet  Congress  is  still
        funding it with your tax money years later.

             This system will give every individual in the world a number
        by  which he must be paid, make purchases or  transact  business.
        Once  set in place every action made by anyone will be  monitored
        right down to your personal or private business.  No  transaction
        will  be unmonitored, nothing you do will go unnoticed once  this
        goes into effect.  Your every move will be ascertained by a large
        computer in Brussels fed information via satellite.  Our informa-
        tion  sources indicate that this system is already  being  imple-
        mented  in  several places throughout the  world,  including  the
        United States.

             The next step will be taxation on what you spend rather than
        on  what you earn.  If you think about it you will see that  this
        is a fail safe method.  A computer will replace personal honesty.
        We all then will be at the mercy of an unforgiving machine.  Even
        when mistakes are detected the burden of proof will remain on the
        individual.  We will be guilty until proven innocent.  Anyone who
        has  ever had a run in with a computer will know the futility  of
        trying to straighten things out with a machine.

             For instance,  one time  my auto insurance took a mysterious
        jump.  When I asked the company why this had happened I was  told
        it was because a report from an information service that collects
        and  then sells data on individuals to firms who request  reports
        had  indicated someone was living with us but not insured  on  my
        policy  had  a  bad driving record.  After getting  down  to  the
        "nitty  gritty" with this information company it  was  discovered
        that  they  had  been "told" that one of my sons  with  a  recent
        driving  arrest  lived with us.  Their concern was that  I  might
        allow him to use my vehicle.  Nothing I said could convince  them
        that  he not only did not live with me, but that I would not  let
        him  drive my car.  Later on I discovered this company got  their
        information  from neighbors who knew nothing of my personal  life
        or  who actually lived in my household.  Finally out of  complete
        frustration  I dropped this company and went to another with  the
        matter  still unresolved.  For all I know they are still  issuing
        reports  about me that aren't true regarding who lives  with  me.
        This  just  goes to show that one person's  evaluation  based  on
        erroneous  information  can  cause a computer  mistake  that  can
        effect your personal business and life.

                           ( A Word About the Trons )

             In our last newsletter we pointed out that our logo had been
        changed  from  one representing the Ashtar Command  to  one  more
        befitting  Metatron, the electron, the cloak of the Father,  with
        whom  I am more closely associated.  We also  mentioned  Solara's
        latest  book, "El An Ra", as she had included certain  characters
        she  called  Trons.   I would like to take  this  opportunity  to
        elaborate  and clarify a few things about us that you  might  not
        otherwise know.

             Solara's book  paints a picture  of  the  Trons   as rebels,
        rogues  or  rascals.  This is not altogether true as we  do  have
        rules  and regulations we must follow.  We do not  put  ourselves
        above  anyone else in the  Intergalactic Command but we do  have,
        in  many  ways, a free hand in what we do.  It  is  important  to
        understand  that  we are called into a situation  when  all  else
        seems  to fail or is not working quickly enough.  The  Trons  are
        known to get the job done as they are the ones least likely to be
        controlled  by external forces which might effect the Mission  at
        hand.
             Many of you  receiving  our newsletters have also recognized
        that  we are somewhat authoritarian in our ways, means  and  man-
        ners.  We, however, do take great pride in our relationship  with
        the  Father and do our damndest to make sure we do not falter  in
        what we are sent to oversee, set-up and then do.  At times it  is
        necessary for our actions or words to take the form of a  "shake-
        up" in order to get things back on track.  We are often given the
        hard tasks for which few volunteer.  So, if we seem gruff,  hard-
        ened  or overbearing at times know it is because we  are  usually
        pressed  to  our limits in every area and way, but  our  loyalty,
        dedication  and intent in our missions is in service to  the  Fa-
        ther.


             Some may  not like our attitude or our direct ways, but when
        the chips are down we usually pull out all stops, getting the job
        done  to  everyone's amazement and liking as to the  end  result.
        This  more often than not helps those who have lost sight of  any
        grand outcomes and helps pull many back up who have faltered even
        in  the hardest of situations.  Without the Trons many  would  be
        overwhelmed by the great presence of the darkness to be contended
        with  at  this time.  We are the Light  in  absolute  expression,
        fearless  of  the Dark and totally able to  reconstruct  outcomes
        with whatever means are at hand and necessary.

             This is not being  said  for  applause but rather because it
        is  important you understand that at the end of our  Mission  our
        Father's Will will be done!  Rather than deserting us because you
        find our manner abrasive I hope you will rally and cheer, picking
        up  the  banner of love with us, then proceeding in all  that  is
        necessary  to create Heaven on Earth.  The Trons will stay  until
        that end is reached so you may as well get used to us.

                                 Peace and Love,
                                     Kortron

                          ( The Content of Our Newsletter )

             We  realize that some of the content of our newsletters will
        at times create fear in those that read it.  It is, however,  our
        intent to lead you in one of the very few directions that can and
        will  get  you through the coming events that will  effect  Earth
        prior to the year 2000.  We feel it is necessary to expose knowl-
        edge on both ends of the spectrum - the positive and the negative
        aspects.  We realize that not accepting or focusing on the  nega-
        tive  aspects  will not make the reality of  their  existence  go
        away.   We do not share the "bad" with you due to  some  negative
        area of our consciousness which wishes to scare the pants off  of
        you.   Rather it is because they are real and must be  understood
        before  we can effectively weather and create correct  change  in
        what is about to occur.  It sometimes takes dynamite to unplug  a
        log jam before everything is in the flow again.  It is because we
        love you so much that at times we use a "tough love" approach  to
        wake you up.


                     ( Subscription and Log-On Information)

             We are  pleased  to send  a "Love Copy" of the newsletter to
        anyone  you  think will be interested.  Just pass  your  friend's
        name and address on to us and we will mail out the current  issue
        compliments  of you.  Back issues are available upon request  for
        $5.00/copy.   They contain much information which is still  rele-
        vant and may provide some clarity on subjects discussed in subse-
        quent newsletters.  Love donations (which should be made  payable
        to  Judith A. Wells) are greatly appreciated and go  to  Spirit's
        work to create Heaven on Earth.

             A subscription also entitles you to log-on the Spirit Bulle-
        tin  Board Service, a computer/modem system with files on  alter-
        nate  energy, UFO/extraterrestrial happenings, political,  scien-
        tific  and  medical  information and much more.   The  files  are
        updated frequently and we encourage you to use and contribute  to
        this "library at your fingertips".  You may access this  informa-
        tion through the HQ bulletin board or the Nodes listed below:

        East Coast HQ           Lady Cmdr. Laea           Cmdr. J.
        Spirit BBS              Spirit BBS                The Mother Ship
        Vilas, NC               Nashville, TN             Holiday, FL
        1-704-297-5973          1-615-781-2118            1-813-938-1770
        24 Hours                7 PM to 7 AM

             For a year's  subscription  (six  bimonthly issues) and user
        status  on  Spirit BBS please send $30.00 (USA)  or  $40.00  (all
        other countries) in check or money order made payable to:

                                 Judith A. Wells
                                Route 2, Box 309B
                                Vilas, NC  28692
                                  704-297-2342
                               Solinus and Kortron

-----EOF------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!dptg!ulysses!princeton!sysof2!gpmenos
From: [e-mail] (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Nov 91 03:29:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Princeton University, Princeton NJ
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3543 alt.alien.visitors:2789 sci.skeptic:17090 talk.religion.newage:7513
Nntp-Posting-Host: sysof2.princeton.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Martin
>Schweikert) writes:
>> This has nothing to do with evolution. It's just an example for natural
>> selection.
>   You are stating that natural selection has nothing to do with evolution?
>This seems quite an extreme position...

Dan,

That's not how I read the original statement.  The writer seemed to be saying
that the pre-existence of both dark and light colored moths suggests that
any pruning of the population --in response to environmenal pressures--
did not show the evolution of a new form (since both forms/colors were
already around).  Rather, the change in the population describes only the
survival of the fittest, and nothing more.  On the other hand, Martin's
original statement did not preclude the possibility that natural selection
might not be part of the evolutionary process;  he only said that the example
of the moths was not sufficient to extend to a proof of evolution.

I hate to sound so convoluted, but I'm certain we read the same stuff
with a different light.

Phil
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ws1r+
From: [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 17:18:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Senior, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 44
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> into other objects (trees).  Apparently Billy had lots of fun
shooting up tre
>es
>> and other things in the forest around his farm in Switzerland.  The
>Pleiadeans
>> made it clear that they had advanced far beyond such primitive
>> weaponry.  Is in no wonder that Billy has had at least 17 attempts on his
>> life?  No, he did not get to keep the weapon.  They took it back and
>> returned it to their museum, where it belongs.
>
>    You mean they took a valuable antique out of a museum and brought it
>across lightyears of space just so Billy could make holes in some trees?  And
>they didn't even let him keep it long enought to show us?  They seem to be
>playing a cruel practical joke on Billy.  But then I guess they had to get it
>back into the museum before anyone noticed it was missing.


Of course!  It all makes sense now: these aliens are interstellar
Fraternity Pledges!!!  This is all part of the hazing ritual:

           :
           :
           5) Drink 30 kegs of Altarian Brandy without turning purple.
           6) Break into the Orion Museum of Natural History.
           7) Buzz some primitive planet: convince the locals that they
are being visited by superior (hah!) beings.
           8) Create life.
           :
           :

            etc.


:-)



+------------------------------------------+
| This message has been brought to you by: |
|       William G. Shotts, L.I.V.R.        |
|   "A Catchy Slogan Should Appear Here"   |
+------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ws1r+
From: [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 17:24:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Senior, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17093 alt.paranormal:3546 alt.alien.visitors:2791 talk.religion.newage:7515
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason
Haines) w
>rites:
>>In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Law
>rence C. Foard) writes:
>
>>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults,
>woomeras,
>>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.
>
>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These


What????

What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?

Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?


+------------------------------------------+
| This message has been brought to you by: |
|       William G. Shotts, L.I.V.R.        |
|   "A Catchy Slogan Should Appear Here"   |
+------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 00:55:41 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 46
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

For those that requested this again:

In articles <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
        <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>


>>..... except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs
>> leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam
>> wounds.
>
>BEAM WOUNDS ?

Billy Meier obtained from his encounters with the Pleiadeans, (these
Pleiadeans are NOT the Pleiadeans of Barbara Marciniak, a lady that I
have spent some time with, and who is supposed to be in telepathic
communication [aka channelling] with a collective group of Pleiadean
consciousness' from the future that, upon my questioning, Billy Meier
disavowed as being fraudulent), a beam weapon that was, according to
Semjase, a 300 year old artifact from a Pleiadean museum.  I have
seen pictures of it and what is supposed to have done.  It is some
kind of a beam weapon with a 37 mile range.  The user thinks of where
he/she wants the beam to go (like into a tree three miles away) and
the gun fires on thought impulses.  I have seen photographs of holes
through 12-14' thick trees with burn marks around the entrance point
and, I beleive, others at the scene were able to follow the
trajectory (is there a trajectory for a straight beam?) straight
into other objects (trees).  Apparently Billy had lots of fun shooting up trees
and other things in the forest around his farm in Switzerland.  The Pleiadeans
made it clear that they had advanced far beyond such primitive
weaponry.  Is in no wonder that Billy has had at least 17 attempts on his
life?  No, he did not get to keep the weapon.  They took it back and
returned it to their museum, where it belongs.

Dr. Richard Haines is currently collecting information on any shoot-downs of
alien craft, either by earth people or their own kind (beam weapons or otherwise).
He is focusing primarily on pilots.  Know of anyone?

I spoke with a man who has a friend that lived near an unnamed U.S. Government
base that was testing beam weapons that vaporized thick metal plates.  Our
technology, or theirs?

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Billy Meier
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 00:56:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 69
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

[e-mail] (Michael McNulty) writes:

> Is Meier still alive?  The tape often referred to his failing health and
> also to the assassination attempts (according to him, 7, at last count).

Yes.  I have been in correspondence with him and his group.  I have a
friend that spent a day with him about three weeks ago.  He seems to be a
little ``flipped out''.  He indicated that he had 13 attempts on his life,
plus many psychic attacks.

> Are people still flocking to his farm?  Or has some other cult taken over
> as the place to be?

No.  My friend went on a Sunday, which is supposed to be an ``open house''.
She was the only visitor all day.  He is surrounded by about 3 - 12 full
time helpers that take care of his book publishing, his monthly newsletter
(which I subscribe to), his correspondence course in spirituality, picture
sales, FAX and mail responding, and so on.

> Since people post channeled messages from the Pleiades, have any of these
> messages spoken of their buddy Billy?

Most all seem to say similar, or the same things, corroborating what Billy
has indicated that he has obtained from Ashket, Semjase, Ptah, Quetzal
and a few others.  I asked Billy about Barbara Marciniak.  He indicated that
she has nothing to do with his group of Pleiadeans.  Apparently, the group
consciousness that makes up the Pleiadeans that Marciniak, Lyssa Royal and
several others (one in Great Britain I know of who wishes to remain
anonymous and a personal friend of mine that wishes to be invisible) is
available to anyone that has the inclination and telepathic availability
to communicate with them.  Billy disassociates himself with such people.

> He seems to me to be a fraud, but has it ever been proven?

People have been convicted of murder with less evidence than that which
proves the validity of Meier's experiences.  No one has been able to
prove it false.  Those that make such claims are usually those whose
cognitive facilities cannot comprehend Billy's experiences or those
whose belief systems have no place for the uncompromisingly surreal
nature of Billy's physical contacts and telepathic communications.

> I know that a
> model (models?) were found in his barn and he hasn't produced negatives of
> his pictures (best pictures in the biz, including Gulf Breeze, in my
> opinion), but has anyone actually seen how stages the photos (if, in fact,
> he really does)?

He made one model in a feeble attempt to try to show his friends what
the disks looked like. It was so bad, that it could not have possibly
have passed for anything rational.  Wrong about the negatives.  Stevens,
et al, produced a video entitled "Contact" wherein they made a model and
tried to show, at the exact locations, how anyone could have faked ANY
of the photos.  All they proved was that it was impossible to fake the
photos as rigorous analysis has shown.  The photos were usually staged
by the Pleiadeans.

> Any other comments about Meier?

Yes.  Keep checking out the facts.  Don't take anyone elses word for it.
Do the research yourself.  Go talk to Billy.  Analyze the pictures
(over 1000).  Analyze the tape recordings.  Analyze the movies.  Talk to
any one of the other 24 eye witnesses.  Read the contact notes (1800 pages).
Or, just sit back and watch the show as it unravels.  :-)

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Encounters of 5th kind
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Oct 91 00:57:56 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

George Newell writes:

> 5th Kind - ??? I'm not sure ??? Does this encounter mean you "BECOME"
>               an alien or something??? Someone else help me out here.

This is when an Earth human somehow contacts an extraterrestrial
(telepathy, waving, smoke signals, verbal communication, dreams, etc)
for the express purpose of coming into face-to-face contact usually,
but not always, including a ride on the alien`s craft.

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 04:01:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 15
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 26 Oct 91 01:12:21 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> > if they're so keen to contact us with vital messages.
> > b) Why they keep on contacting housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics
> > etc.  Again, if their message is SO important they would surely contact
> > a leader of state.  There must be some government official, somewhere
> > who is capable of receiving them.

>      Could be that the aliens would rather share their knowledge with the
> vast majority of humans that would make good use of it rather than a small
> minority that would do harm with it.

    So you're suggesting that superior technology has been shared with
housewives, ex-drug addicts, schizophrenics, etc. and they're making good use
of it?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:    Gulf Breeze And Cia/dod Plots
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 02:53:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer) writes:
>>The big problem with the model-on-a-stick theory seems to be, why isn't
>>there a break in the glowing blue ring on the bottom of the object?
>
>Because (choose and implement one):
>    The ring is in front of the stick.
>    The stick has that part of the ring painted on it.
>    The stick has a hook that loops up behind to the top or side
>    of the object.

The last one seems the most likely.  I have to admit I really wasn't
thinking when I posted my first message.  I was thinking all the way back
to the time someone suggested the model might be on the top of a PVC pipe
with a flashlight shining up through it.  That idea got shot down because
the pipe would interrupt the ring.  Coincidentally, that was about the
same time I got sick and tired of the whole GB debate and quit paying much
attention to it, so I guess it was the last thing stuck in my mind.

>For me, extraordinary proof is now: advanced technology or information,
>or personal experience.
>
>My favorite is the prediction of some event such as a near term
>supernova, or information that can be confirmed by an interplanetary
>probe (there are a few in transit right now).

I think Hoagland was experimenting with predicting certain things based on
his Mars theories, with minimal success.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  Puerto Rican sitings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 02:58:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ivan Manuel Bou) writes:
>No offense but I have lived in Puerto Rico all of my life and my family
>is always there and i'm just out here for college, and we have never
>seen any ufo's I don't know anybody who has seen any UFO's and THERE ARE
>NOT A LOT OF OCCULT ELEMENTS VOODOO OR THAT SHIT IN THE SOCIETY YOU MUST
>BE THINKING OF FUCKING HAITI OR SOMETHING YOU DICKWAD.

You call that "no offense"?

>There has been none of that shit in the papers because the papers in PR
>are pretty decent and respectable and they wouldn't publish that CRAP
>anyway.

May I ask why the hell you're reading this newsgroup?  And do I really have
to mention that people DO see unexplained things in the skies, regardless
of what those things happen to be?

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: the evolution thread
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 03:12:37 GMT
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 9
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2798 sci.skeptic:17094 talk.religion.newage:7517 alt.paranormal:3547

Could the participants in the evolution thread please move it out of
alt.alien.visitors?  It probably doesn't belong in talk.religion.newage or
alt.paranormal either.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 04:53:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 14
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 26 Oct 91 00:55:41 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> into other objects (trees).  Apparently Billy had lots of fun shooting up trees
> and other things in the forest around his farm in Switzerland.  The Pleiadeans
> made it clear that they had advanced far beyond such primitive
> weaponry.  Is in no wonder that Billy has had at least 17 attempts on his
> life?  No, he did not get to keep the weapon.  They took it back and
> returned it to their museum, where it belongs.

    You mean they took a valuable antique out of a museum and brought it
across lightyears of space just so Billy could make holes in some trees?  And
they didn't even let him keep it long enought to show us?  They seem to be
playing a cruel practical joke on Billy.  But then I guess they had to get it
back into the museum before anyone noticed it was missing.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (dhaley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Evolution
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 05:22:59 GMT
References: <1991Oct24.164736.8764@[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 35

In article <1991Oct24.164736.8764@[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Major Havok) writes:
>
>rock, water, minerals, etc.). They found that almost immediately a very basic
>form of life (or predecessor to life) had been created. They didn't classify
>the single-celled entities as being a life form since they did not possess
>any DNA, but the cellular membrane of these newly formed entities was
>definitely similar to the membranes of todays simple organisms. These were
>not just useless globs of cellular tissue, they did in fact reproduce by
>budding and were capable of utilizing sunlight to generate food. I believe
>they also had the ability to move about or later evolved to be able to move
>about, I could be wrong on that point though. I wish I knew the name of the
>program so that I can verify this claim.

 Sorry, not quite right I am afraid. Theprotein sphericals _did_ display
many qualities of life includeing budding (A form of reproduction still
evident in yeast), And contained/synthesised many life compounds, such as
urea and amino acids as well as other proteins. As for locomotion and
the use of sunlight, niether have been successfully "created" in the laboratory
yet. However, With conditions of the early earth which MUST have existed,
and an ocean-wide laboratory, these are not such big steps. Anyone
interested can find a good account of this theory in Biological science, by
Keaton and Gould.

How did this thread start in alt.alien.visitors anyway, could someone post/mail
the relevant article?

 A question, has anyone here read the book "Return to Mars" ? If so, what is
it like?


>--
>+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
>| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
>| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
>+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+
From: [e-mail] (David O Hunt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 18:07:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Organization: Masters student, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 40
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17098 alt.paranormal:3548 alt.alien.visitors:2801 talk.religion.newage:7518
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
>
>
>What????
>
>What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
>
>Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?
>
>
>+------------------------------------------+
>| This message has been brought to you by: |
>|       William G. Shotts, L.I.V.R.        |
>|   "A Catchy Slogan Should Appear Here"   |
>+------------------------------------------+


Methinks he's being picky...

Although there are lots of cases that I've _heard_ about where persons in the
military H-bomb tests are dying from radiation-induced problems and are trying
to sue the government (unsuccessfully).  This would, I think, count for people
dying from H-bombs, though not in the manner we are "accustomed" to...



David Hunt
Grad Student, Mechanical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University

========================================================

My mind is my own, so are my ideas and opinions.
My heart, body, and soul, however, all belong to others.

"Can you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from
here," asked Alice.

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,"
said the cat.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!ptimtc!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 18:23:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>    <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 21
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (William Geoffrey Shotts) writes:
>>No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
>
>
>What????
>
>What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  Practical jokes?
>
>Or are you being picky about the definition of "nuclear" and "thermonuclear"?

Not picky, just trying to inject a reasonable amount of accuracy and precision
into the discussion, IMNSHO.  The bombs used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were NOT
themonuclear.  They were fission bombs, not fusion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 12:32:41 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 16

David Jones writes:  "(these Pleiadeans are NOT the Pleiadeans
of Barbara Marciniak, a lady that I have spent time with, and who is
supposed to be in telepathic communication (ada channeling) with
a collective group of Pleiadean consciousness from the future that,
upon my questioning, Billy Meier disavowed as being fraudulent)..."

David:  Are you saying here that Billy Meier claims that Barbara
Marciniak's work is fraudulent?  Or am I misunderstanding your statement
and you are saying that Billie Meier is saying that Barbara Marciniak
is NOT fraudulent?

What do you personally feel about the work of Barbara Marciniak?
Do you feel she is in communication with Pleiadeans of the future?
And if so, do you feel the material is coming back in its pure form?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: World Grown Cold...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 12:25:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 28

Kellan Hatch writes: "If it's true for you then it has to be
just as true for me."  Not necessarily so...it depends if the being
is accessing certain levels of consciousness.  A shaman may enter
a reality that has no truth (or existence) for you.  Simply because
you can not access it (or have not opened enough to access it) does
not mean it does not exist.  A shaman may enter another reality
to help in healing.  Because you do not see it or realize it does
not mean it is false.  His truth (reality) is different than yours...
it is perhaps more a matter like some singers reaching a higher
octave/pitch than others.

It is my feeling/intuition that there are in fact not only physical
visitations of UFOs occurring on this planet at this time, but also
some type of inter-dimensional consciousness ones occurring for which
we at present time have no explanation (scientifically).  Nevertheless,
it is still occurring (my FEELING...I have no PROOF)...I simply FEEL.
I am a FEELER.  In healing work, I trust my feelings and instincts
an it is amazing what can happen when I do.  And my inner feeling is
that all types of things are happening at this time in history which
has to do with expansion of consciousness.

For me, I do not even try to follow UFO stories anymore, I simply
accept they are here and exist.  But what I AM interested in is
discovering where all this ET stuff will take us...that is my interest.
I have no interest or desire to try to disprove the actual physical
sightings and visitations.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Oct 91 15:32:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 41
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17106 alt.paranormal:3550 alt.alien.visitors:2805 talk.religion.newage:7521

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:

>Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
>mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
>scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults, woomeras,
>arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
>tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.

No one has ever been directly killed by a thermonuclear weapon.  These
earlier weapons you mention were often wielded by religious zealots,
which include non-christian Romans killing christians, and later,
Christians killing anyone who was non-christian.  By the way, the
Greco-Roman religions popular at the time didn't like christianity
because christians were so violently monotheist.  Other religions
blended and coexisted with the polytheism common. Even the monotheistic
Judaism coexisted ,albeit on unfriendly terms.  Christians just didn't
want to coexist.  Later, when christianity became more powerful, it was
able to kill off those that didn't agree with it.

In any case, guns don't kill people, people kill people.  Science
doesn't cause wars, politicians do.

Considering that the world population has gone up, not down (mostly due
to better medical care) , I would guess that more people have been
saved from death, than have died in any war.  It's easy to say this
because war isn't really that good at killing people.  The most people
get killed indirectly by war, such as starvation, or disease, which
might not have happened if there weren't a war.  During the Vietnam
war, more people died in car accidents in any *one* year during the
war, than US soldiers on the battle front in the entire war.

Religon has killed lots of people, and it has used science and
technology to do it.  Death is a fact of life, and war is only
a small part of all deaths.

Bibliography
    The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 1987, Pharos Books
    ISBN 0886870292-8
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber    [e-mail]   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!ei.ecn.purdue.edu!iachetta
From: [e-mail] (Richard N Iachetta)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What's up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 05:57:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dhaley) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David James Hahn) writes:
>>
>>I  don't understand any of these postings.....How can you be convinced that
>>there are alien visitors  with no actual proof?  Govt. cirumstantianl proof
>>doesnt mean anything, they tell you what ever they want.   What you think
>>they are telling you is "propaganda".  You can never be sure what
>>you're being told so why argue your point if you have no facts to base anything
>>on????
>Why is it that senior airforce officials, investigating an alleged UFO crash
>would first state that "Yes, It was a UFO", than go on to call it a weather
>baloon, and then say that it was a light airplane crash. Weather balloons and
>airplane crashes usually don't attract the attention of the military??
>
>Circumstantial proof maybe.... I don't have either dates or Names to back
>up these claims, maybe some one out there does. It was a big issue at the time
>which was a long time ago..

Remember what UFO stands for.  Just becuause they called it an unidentified
object at first doesn't mean it was aliens from outer space.  Anything that
crash lands from the sky could very believablely attract military attention.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!ei.ecn.purdue.edu!iachetta
From: [e-mail] (Richard N Iachetta)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 06:09:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From what I read, many UFO's fly around military bases.. they could be space
>ships captured somehow as some people claim.. But has anyone tried to
>intercept the converstations between the pilots flying around the UFO?

Every government branch and agency in this country leaks classified
information like a sieve, yet the military is flying around in spaceships
captured from aliens and everyone involved has resisted the urge to
become well known by breaking the story?  According to this group it
is a lot of people too: secret government agencies who have space craft,
live or dead aliens, etc.  Come on folks.

Rich
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From: [e-mail] (Jon J Thaler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 05:46:29 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2808 sci.skeptic:17107

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>     In regards to the questions  about what Lambda radiation is I hereby
>submit the following information.  Lambda - an uncharged unstable elementary
>particle that has a mass 2183 times that of an electron  and that  decays
>typically into a nucleon and a pion.  It is generally connected with the
>radiation of Cosmic Rays.

(...lots of exciting news about the Venusians deleted...)

>   This is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston.
>    I am not Don. Don is not me.
>    John.

Well, Don or John, you've made the mistake of saying something that can be
checked for validity.  The Lambda baryon has a lifetime of 0.1 nanoseconds.
That means that even at the highest energy ever observed for a cosmic ray
(about 10**20 electron-Volts, if that means anything to you) this particle
will travel only about a million miles.  Thus, unless the cosmic rays are
coming from the moon, there are *NO* Lambda baryons in them.  Just to make
myself clear, there is no evidence whatever that Lambda baryons constitute
any measurable component of the cosmic ray flux.

Please stick to your usual fantasy routine; it's much more entertaining.
I'm beginning to like your Venusian friends better than the Coneheads.
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From: john@anasaz (John Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Billy Meier
Message-ID: <1991Oct27.161324.22784@anasaz>
Date: 27 Oct 91 16:13:24 GMT
Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA
Lines: 14

Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
]Yes.  I have been in correspondence with him and his group.  I have a
]friend that spent a day with him about three weeks ago.  He seems to be a
]little ``flipped out''.  He indicated that he had 13 attempts on his life,
]plus many psychic attacks.
           ^^^^^^^psychotic?
--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john [e-mail] anasaz![e-mail]
"It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth
part..." B. Franklin   - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm
From: [e-mail] (James W. Meritt)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 02:51:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
}[e-mail] (James W. Meritt) writes:
}: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
}: }Now, there is no scientific indication whatsoever that nothing can do
}: }anything, so is it not more logical that someone did something?
}: }
}: }There is also not scientific indication whatsoever that anything can
}: }appear out of nothing.
}:
}: Boy, are you in for a bad suprise if you ever look at QM & virtual
}: particles & Hawkins radiation and find out that when you make a
}: "scientific indication" statement that you are 100% wrong.
}
}There is always something there for it to appear from. Either energy,
}mass, or space. (Yes, I know that these things are convertible)
}Just understand that vaccum is not "nothing". There is a fabric of
}space throughout the whole universe. That is also a kind of matter.
}Just wait a few years, and your scientists will have figured that one
}out also.

Excuse me for not being impressed by your redefining nothing such that
your original statement is a tauntology.

Yes, I know about the GR assignment for the zero-point energy.

}The original "nothingness" is really nothing. No energy, no particles,
}no space, no time, no nothing. It is like a scientific theory
}consisting of zero number of formulas.  Nothing can appear from that,
}because there is nothing from which it can appear. Not even the
}laws of physics exist in nothingness.

And what makes you think that "time" is exampt from your statement
for exhaustive nothingness?  "appear" is meaningless without a time
component.

Are all your arguments based either on tauntologies or misconceptions?


Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization.  The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
    [e-mail] or [e-mail] or meritt%aplvm.BITNET
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!jetson.uh.edu!cosc1498
From: [e-mail] (91F6380)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 02:58:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 47
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...

[Stuff deleted]

>
>Actually, it's religion which has historically said (and still does say):  "Do
>this because some authority (the church, claiming to be acting on the orders of
>God) says to do it.  You don't have to know why, and you certainly don't have
>to understand how things work in detail, nor be able to predict the
>consequences.  God said to do it, and that's reason enough."  When you have a
>society whose members have been brought up to believe that dogma is sufficient
>unto itself, then you can expect that society to start treating scientists and
>technocrats as priests, not bothering either to question their pronouncements
>nor to take the trouble to understand enough of science to make informed
>decisions for themselves.  Don't blame the scientists for the short-sightedness
>of our society;  it's the priests (generic term, including religious and
>quasi-religious authorities even in organizations which claim not to have
>priests) that have indoctrinated the society into behaving like sheep.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
>

[Disclaimer deleted]

Now, this is the sort of thing that society needs to look at.  While people are
growing both more tolerant and more intolerant of other religions, other
sciences, and other systems of systems, one constant remains.  That constant is
blind belief, blind faith, or blind supposition.

Now, as Mr. Lydick said, our society has been brought up to treat dogma as
unquestionable fact.  This goes for science AND religion.  Why is heroin bad?
The government says so.  Why is God good?  My preacher told me.

People need to be reminded that they are free to discover truths on their own.
Now, not many people would have the desire to make a mathematical proof of
the Theory of Relativity, but many other things can be tested.  Ask your
pastor who God is!  Try putting transmission fluid in with your engine oil!
Wear Spam on your head and put Cucumbers in your nose for a fashion statement.

Be FREE!

BTW - We need to move this discussion out of "alt.paranormal" if it goes any
further.  I see no reason to clutter that group up with this...

From,

The Pengomeister (who has no long ending block but a cool handle)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Those underground objects in Utah
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 00:19:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR) writes:
>Hi: Has anyone heard any more on those strange objects that were found
>during a dig at a toxic waste dump in Ogden Utah? Have not heard any
>more on that for weeks.

Very few people have heard anything, me included.  Apparently Guy Kirkwood
has photos but hasn't made any copies for anyone.  I have a couple of .GIF
files (don't ask me for them, I've only got a 2400 baud connection to the
UUCP network) which contain a rough sketch of one of the objects and a
tracing of some of the writing; these were made from Kirkwood's pictures.
The sketch is completely unrecognizable to me, but others have said it
looks like some sort of drilling machine.  The writing looks like Arabic,
and I've heard that some of the letters can be translated but they don't
form any words.

>I am interested because I may be passing through that area in a few
>weeks, and would like to stop by and take a look!

The location is still unknown to me.  (It's not Ogden; it was described as
a certain distance away from Ogden, but I'm not sure even that is
accurate.)  Peggy Noonan on ParaNet is trying to cover the story for OMNI,
but I don't know how much she knows and she can't say much anyway before
the article is published.

--
 *  From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION:            | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bessel.as.utexas.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (William H. Jefferys)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 04:28:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.paranormal
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin
Lines: 18
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3554 alt.alien.visitors:2813 sci.skeptic:17112 talk.religion.newage:7524

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
#
#There is always something there for it to appear from. Either energy,
#mass, or space. (Yes, I know that these things are convertible)
#Just understand that vaccum is not "nothing". There is a fabric of
#space throughout the whole universe. That is also a kind of matter.
#Just wait a few years, and your scientists will have figured that one
#out also.
#
#The original "nothingness" is really nothing. No energy, no particles,
#no space, no time, no nothing. It is like a scientific theory
#consisting of zero number of formulas.  Nothing can appear from that,
#because there is nothing from which it can appear. Not even the
#laws of physics exist in nothingness.

Proof by assertion.

Bill
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part I
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 12:41:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 21

John posts through Don Showen about a woman from Venus who
took an Earth child's body, etc:

John:
I suspect that many of us here are from Venus (and elsewhere)
as the soul makes its' sojourn throughout the various eternity
systems.  What would be the empahsis on Venus?  Love, undoubtedly.
Maybe a brief stay there, or a lifetime there would magnify the
love vibration within a being.

As far as blondes being Venusians:  Look at that famous painting
of Venus (Aphrodite) coming out of the shell from the ocean (was
it a Boticelli?).  Was she not a redhead?  :-)

Kathy

If your light is such that the genuineness of its nature brings joy
to but one entity in your life, you have made a grand difference;
you have created worth.  And if that joy be only unto you; it will
have an aftermath in others.
     --Anonymous (I do not know who the author is)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 13:36:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 47

In reading the contents of this newsletter (recently posted
by Don Allen), when I got to the part about the Dracos wanting
to use humans as 'food' the thought occurred to me that this
itself may be an idea inspired by the 'dark' forces to further
implant fear and confusion into the hearts of the people.

Throughout my years of meditation, group work, etc. I have
run across many people who were not balanced: it happens when
one begins to make inward journeys.  Oftentimes there is a
sense of not being grounded or losing one's ground.  I have
noticed a lot of seemingly postive, good things at the beginning,
and then the slow interjection of manipulative, confusing things
to occur within these types of scenarios.

The contents of the letter seems to go along with the message
of the Marian apparitions at Medjugorge regarding that Satan
is trying to overtake the world.  If one thinks of Satan as
that which opposes light (or truth, love, harmony, beauty, etc)
then certainly it seems to me that something is going on here.

When I read the part: "..the Pleiadeans who seeded Homo sapiens are
here to retrieve their existing original hibrid form"--this
translated to me that it is all about regaining/remember/making
an opening/re-creating a remembrance of our own spiritual divinity/
identity.  Although the language is not exactly the same, the
essence behind the words seems similar enough to me.

My question here is why, if the Dracos want to 'eat' humans...why
are they waiting to do it?  I mean, after all, we have been here
on this planet for millions of years, and there are millions of
juicy bodies...???

It seems that this is one of the fear things put into a seemingly
good organization, and that is exactly how I have seen dark forces
work:  oftentimes getting people all mixed up, infiltrated with
fear, etc.

Being a serious meditator for a number of years, the real strength
seems to be in the center of inward peace within one.  I have no
fear to speak out (as mentioned in that newsletter), but do believe
there is a spiritual form/realm wherein the rules may be different
than what we think.

Thanks, Don, for posting this.  I have never heard of Stone Mountain..
how long have these people been doing their pyramid thing?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: All the STUPID RE:s
Message-ID: <422800005@peg>
Date: 4 Nov 91 18:10:00 GMT
References: <1376736294@[e-mail]>
Lines: 4
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail]:1376736294:peg:422800005:000:21
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson    Nov  4 13:10:00 1991


I second that!

Mark
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Moon Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 14:20:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2817 sci.skeptic:17121

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>      About a year ago an engineer that was in a high position of leadership
> made a statement that a lot of people use hen they first start talking to me
> and that is  John your not going to believe what happened to me .  Then I
> usually respond with  Go ahead and try me .   [etc.]

    Yes, why not? You seem to be able to believe six impossible
things before breakfast, John :-)
    Just because someone says something happened doesn't mean that it
did.  I have a psychologist friend who had a female patient.  She was a
housewife and normal in every discernible way ... except occasionally, when
she was doing the washing-up she was convinced her head rotated 360 degrees.
    Maybe you might believe that someone's head can do that.  Most
people know that it is impossible.  Personal testimony is just that -
subjective.  If it wasn't we would have all been convinced about this
lambda radiation, pyramids on stone mountain and other gunk.  Someone may
believe that he has been to the moon.  He may show a remarkable knowledge
about it. The government might be convinced by him (like Uri Geller says
it's convinced about him).  But his stories might still not be the TRUTH
as we might see it.

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto
From: [e-mail] (Eric Shafto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 14:51:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Lines: 6
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2818 sci.skeptic:17125

Boy, this Winston guy is one goofy fellow, huh?
--
*Eric Shafto             * Sometimes, I think we are alone.  Sometimes I  *
*Institute for the       * think we are not.  In either case, the thought *
*    Learning Sciences   * is quite staggering.                           *
*Northwestern University *     -- R. Buckminster Fuller                   *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nynexst.com!mirage!pjc
From: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 18:09:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (For News purposes)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Nynex Science & Technology
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
|> In reading the contents of this newsletter (recently posted
|> by Don Allen), when I got to the part about the Dracos wanting
|> to use humans as 'food' the thought occurred to me that this
|> itself may be an idea inspired by the 'dark' forces to further
|> implant fear and confusion into the hearts of the people.
|>
|> Throughout my years of meditation, group work, etc. I have
|> run across many people who were not balanced: it happens when
|> one begins to make inward journeys.  Oftentimes there is a
|> sense of not being grounded or losing one's ground.  I have
|> noticed a lot of seemingly postive, good things at the beginning,
|> and then the slow interjection of manipulative, confusing things
|> to occur within these types of scenarios.
|>
|> The contents of the letter seems to go along with the message
|> of the Marian apparitions at Medjugorge regarding that Satan
|> is trying to overtake the world.  If one thinks of Satan as
|> that which opposes light (or truth, love, harmony, beauty, etc)
|> then certainly it seems to me that something is going on here.
|>
|> When I read the part: "..the Pleiadeans who seeded Homo sapiens are
|> here to retrieve their existing original hibrid form"--this
|> translated to me that it is all about regaining/remember/making
|> an opening/re-creating a remembrance of our own spiritual divinity/
|> identity.  Although the language is not exactly the same, the
|> essence behind the words seems similar enough to me.
|>
|> My question here is why, if the Dracos want to 'eat' humans...why
|> are they waiting to do it?  I mean, after all, we have been here
|> on this planet for millions of years, and there are millions of
|> juicy bodies...???
|>
|> It seems that this is one of the fear things put into a seemingly
|> good organization, and that is exactly how I have seen dark forces
|> work:  oftentimes getting people all mixed up, infiltrated with
|> fear, etc.
|>
|> Being a serious meditator for a number of years, the real strength
|> seems to be in the center of inward peace within one.  I have no
|> fear to speak out (as mentioned in that newsletter), but do believe
|> there is a spiritual form/realm wherein the rules may be different
|> than what we think.
|>
|> Thanks, Don, for posting this.  I have never heard of Stone Mountain..
|> how long have these people been doing their pyramid thing?
|>
|> Kathy

You missed the point, its not "juicy bodies" that they wish to eat. Since
you are "a serious meditator for a number of years", you should know this.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 19:18:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17137 alt.paranormal:3557 alt.alien.visitors:2820 talk.religion.newage:7535

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anthony J Stieber) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>
>>    Does fallout count as a direct effect or indirect? The people
>>on the Lucky Dragon died after being exposed to the fallout of an H Bomb test,
>>didn't they?
>
>I would define fallout as indirect, but exposure to radiation from the
>blast as direct.  I'm not that familiar with this case, perhaps I'm
>wrong.  I'm sure at least some people have died as an indirect result
>thermonuclear explosions in the form of fallout (after several years).
>Now that I think about it, although the US may not have killed anyone
>with thermonukes, the other countries that have developed them (USSR,
>China, probably India, Israel, and the several others in the club), may
>have killed some people with them.

    Hmmm. India clearly can make fission weapons, but as far as I
know, they have not exploded a fusion device. In the absense of such
a fusion bomb test, how can Inda have killed people with them? Ditto
for covert members of the nuclear club, like Israel and South
Africa.

    I suppose there are deaths associated with developing nuclear
weapons; people exposed to lethal doses of radiation because of accidents
or improper handling of materials, which are deaths unique to nuclear
weapons manufacture, and  more mundane fatalities like people getting
run over by trucks delivering supplies to the folks designing, producing
or storing nuclear weapons. Were you referring deaths in the first
catagory or the second?

                            James Nicoll


Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!salado!astro.as.arizona.edu!msf
From: [e-mail] (Michael Fulbright)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 19:09:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov4.060942.25162@nooOrganization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Sender: [e-mail] (Operator)
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 20


A previous poster said something which always bugs me - how can the
goverment cover up something of this magnitude for 40+ years? There
must have been considerable turnover in the organizations which are
supposed to be doing the cover up - it seems at least one person would
have wanted to spill the beans and come out with a photo of 10 saucers in
a hanger with USAF people standing around it and would have gone to
the New York Times or Wall Street Journal to break the story of the century/
millineum/history of planet?  So far the people I've seen interviewed who
claim to have been involved are always 'a janitor who cleaned up a mess
made by a short alien' or something.  In 40+ years I would expect a
huge project like this to have leaked something substantial - people just
arent that good at keeping secrets.

Its really seducing to think there is something big we havent been told
about. But I have trouble believing it could be covered-up so well for
so long.

michael
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnews!ewm
From: [e-mail] (edward.w.mcfarland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 20:37:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov4.060942.25162@nooOrganization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Fulbright) writes:
>
>A previous poster said something which always bugs me - how can the
>goverment cover up something of this magnitude for 40+ years? There
>must have been considerable turnover in the organizations which are
>supposed to be doing the cover up - it seems at least one person would
>have wanted to spill the beans and come out with a photo of 10 saucers in
>a hanger with USAF people standing around it and would have gone to
>the New York Times or Wall Street Journal to break the story of the century/
>millineum/history of planet?  So far the people I've seen interviewed who
>claim to have been involved are always 'a janitor who cleaned up a mess
>made by a short alien' or something.  In 40+ years I would expect a
>huge project like this to have leaked something substantial - people just
>arent that good at keeping secrets.
>
>Its really seducing to think there is something big we havent been told
>about. But I have trouble believing it could be covered-up so well for
>so long.
>
>michael
>[e-mail]


 "Today, when secrets come out that would have brought down governments in the
  past, spin-control experts shower the media with so many lies that the truth
  is obscured despite being in plain sight."                   --Jim Gasperini



     Ed McFarland                       We make history the old-fashioned
     [e-mail]                  way, we revise it!

*  Truth :  the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of   *
*  destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by   *
*  all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.   *
                                          -unknown (to me)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!crackers!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 21:31:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17142 alt.paranormal:3559 alt.alien.visitors:2823 talk.religion.newage:7542

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (erin s anderson) writes:

>I agree
>that the Quantum theory is quite the harsh blow to God.

What I meant to say was, I DON'T think Quantum theory is a blow to God at all.
Because a) one major attribute of God is that He can break the rules, and
b) I don't understand quantum theory that much. :-)

I would think that whether or not a quantum uncertainty is KNOWN depends on
who knows it, and what he does.  If, at the end of the Schrodinger's Cat
experiment (yes I know it's just a metaphor, nobody actually ever did it),
the first scientist to arrive on the scene checks the cat (and if it's alive,
he removes the poison or whatever, so the result won't change when the other
scientists get there), then jumps out the window and falls thirty stories to
his death, without recording whether the cat is alive or dead... is the result
really "known"?  Is the cat STILL sorta-alive-sorta-dead until the scientists
get there?  I would think so.

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>religion is the study of everything else.
>
>Well put, but I think there is more than just physical, and religious
>studies.
OK, maybe religion isn't "everything else", but the realms studied by science
and religion are pretty much disjoint.  So science and religion can both be
correct.  IMHO.

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        # "You fat, bloated idiot!" --Ren
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    # "Oh, joy!"                --Stimpy
devastatingly true, except the bits # "No sir, I don't like it." --horse
that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    # assorted catchphrases from "Ren & Stimpy"
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!milo.mcs.anl.gov!spatial!tim
From: [e-mail] (Tim Eckert)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 21:24:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Argonne National Lab, Ill
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Nntp-Posting-Host: spatial.eid.anl.gov

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dean Haley) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>>
>>This is an old argument that isn't valid and never has been. There are several
>>documented cases of organisms evolving within an observable time space. One of
>>the first and still classical studies was of moths in a coalmining district in
>>Great Britain. They were previously white, which allowed them to hide against
>>the predominately white treetrunks, but became black as the pollution
>>blackened the tree trunks. In case you choose to missunderstand me, the moths
>>are now *born* black.
>
> Also try one particular species of Sea grass. This is totally new and is
>evidence of rapid evolution, ie in a single generation. It grows somewhere
>along the coast of America. Reference- Seniour Biology for  students.
> Now tell me evolution doesn't exist. It is happening before our eyes.
>
>>There has since been mountains of similar studies. Just look in the yearly
>>index of any major science journal and you will find them.
>
>Agreed

  I don't know anything about the Sea grass, but I heard something different
about the moths in G.B. that makes more sense to me.  For a species of moth
to change from white to black that quickly would be pretty tough.  Those
things take more time.  What I heard happened is that all the pollution in
the air made the white moths stand out so that they were wiped out by the
birds.  The dark moths, which existed at the same time as the white moths,
were naturally hidden.  Thus it was a matter of simple natural selection,
and not genetic evolution.  I wouldn't call the extermination of a species
evolution.

Tim Eckert
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Nov 91 20:58:40 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 40
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2825 sci.skeptic:17153


     In regards to the questions  about what Lambda radiation is I hereby
submit the following information.  Lambda - an uncharged unstable elementary
particle that has a mass 2183 times that of an electron  and that  decays
typically into a nucleon and a pion.  It is generally connected with the
radiation of Cosmic Rays.

     Last week Don Showen told me that he had a book about a lady living on
Earth from Venus and wanted to know if she was the same person that I met in
Oakland, Calif.  I got the book off of him and the book is written by a
different lady who lives in the southern  part of the USA.  Her name is Omnic
Onec and the book is called UFO -From Venus I Came.  It seems that this lady
came here when she looked like a blond girl of about 7 years old.  This book
states that,  one white race here on our Earth known by many as Aryans, came
from Venus.  Onec was on the astral plane of vibration on Venus so to get her
to come here they sent her to a temple on Venus where they lowered her
vibrational freq. and later after being brought here in a bell shaped space
craft like George Adamski saw, she was brought to a monastery in the high
mountains in the East to get used  walking around in her physical body.  She
was later landed again in Nevada.
     After an Earth child by the name of Sheila was killed in a school bus
accident on her way to raised  by her grandmother, she was switched  with the
Earth child.
   Onec is a normal sized lady with about five children.  The people of Venus
can t be seen by most of Earth people in physical form  They can lower their
vibrational frequency so they can be seen if they so desire.  Some people
refer to them as the tall angelic beings (most of them aren t angles) so often
spoken of in our UFO contacts.  Normally they are seven to eight feet tall,  (
the only ones I ve ever seen were of normal height and has dark hair).  They
are known for their long blond hair and blue  or green eyes.  Their hands are
broad, with long and slender tapering fingers.  The outer fingers curve in
towards the straight middle finger, making each look almost like the flame  of
a candle.
   The lady from Venus I met in Oakland , Calif. looked very much like Joan
Biaz, the folk-singer.  There is also Viv of Venus,. but that is another
story.
   This is being posted by Don Showen for John Winston.
    I am not Don. Don is not me.
    John.

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Moon Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Nov 91 21:01:09 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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     About a year ago an engineer that was in a high position of leadership
made a statement that a lot of people use hen they first start talking to me
and that is  John your not going to believe what happened to me .  Then I
usually respond with  Go ahead and try me .   It seemed that this
engineer had seen an entity that could be seen through at about 1:30 in the
morning  where the engineer worked.  What was seen was a man with clothes on
that you could see through.  He had been seen on more than one occasion at two
different places.  The engineer asked not to divulge any information about the
situation.  The engineer didn t believe in this sort of thing and feared that
other people may make fun of the engineer may loose a certain job.
     The odd thing about it is that the engineer is correct. I ll leave you
with this saying;  We have met the enemy  and they are us.  P--o.
    Next subject.  Our Moon Part 2.
     My teacher once had a hill billy friend from Missouri by the name of Buck
Nelson,who claimed have been taken on several rides by people from other
planets and he wrote a book about it.  Our government found out about this and
would bring Buck to Washington after he would take a ride and he d tell them
what he had seen. On one such occasion, he was put on a stage and some
scientists were required by our government to ask him some questions although
they didn't want to be there anyway.  One scientist asked him the following
questions; Scientist ; Well Mr. Nelson
 you claim to l have been taken to the Moon,{laughter}.  Will you tell us
something about the so called 12 mile bridge on the Moon near Mare Crisium and
Mare Illium? Buck Nelson, Yes sir, what would you like to know about it.  I ve
been on it. Sc. Oh, well Mr. Nelson {more laughter}.  What is the purpose of
it ?  Why do the lights come on and then go off, etc.?  B.N.  Well sir, This
here bridge, ya see is made over a large crater that was made to meine sdrock,
sort a like those big holes were made in Wyoming and Montana on the earth to
mine copper.  On many of the planets the rock has broken down into gravel and
then into soil so they come to the moon to get rock like our granite before it
has been broken down by erosion.  When the crater got so big, then they just
built a large bridge across it so their small cars, that hey use to
travel,which hover about 3 feet above the ground can go from one side to the
other of the c rater and not have to travel downs the rough sides of the
crater.   The people on the moon work in shifts of about 2 to 4 hours.  When
they come on shift they turn on the light, when they through with the shifts
they turn off the lights,. Sc. Thank your, there will be no further question.
{no laughter}.
    After it was all over another scientist came up to Buck and told him how
wonderful he thought it was that Buck would bet up in front of all of these
skeptics and tell of his experiences.  B.N.  Aw. goodness  it s no more than
any other patriotic American would do.  Sc.  No, Mr. Nelson that s not quite
right  because you see I myself have been taken  on a trip similar to yours
but I have too high paying of a job to risk talking about my  experiences to
anyone.
  That s all for now.  I ll leave you with this saying;  Let there be peace on
Earth and let it begin with me. John.
Posted by Don Showen for John Winston.
I am not Don and Don is not me.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Juicy Bodies (was Re: Ovotron, etc.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 00:10:21 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 13

Someone (I forget the name and did not save the post) said
to me it is not "juicy bodies" these Dracos want to eat, and
if I were a serious meditator, I would know that.

So what is it YOU think they want to eat?  Our spiritual
essence?  Are you saying/thinking/feeling/believing along
the lines that the essence can be eaten up by another being
or stolen, or the soul lost, or something along these lines?

Since you are so sure that I "missed the point", please do enlighten
to me as to what the REAL point is, I would be interested in knowing.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (Dean Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 23:59:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
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X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tim Eckert) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dean Haley) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:
>>>
>
>  I don't know anything about the Sea grass, but I heard something different
>about the moths in G.B. that makes more sense to me.  For a species of moth
>to change from white to black that quickly would be pretty tough.  Those
>things take more time.  What I heard happened is that all the pollution in
>the air made the white moths stand out so that they were wiped out by the
>birds.  The dark moths, which existed at the same time as the white moths,
>were naturally hidden.  Thus it was a matter of simple natural selection,
>and not genetic evolution.  I wouldn't call the extermination of a species
>evolution.
>
>Tim Eckert

As far as I know, evolution means the changeing of one type of thing into
another form. As you have so aptly pointed out, this is natural selection...
What you fail to realise however is that the white and black moths are of the
same species, and natural selection is acting on one particular phenotype, ie
the white moths, which changes the genotype, and thus evolution has occured.
The white phenotype exist in other regions of G.B still, but since the tree
trunks in these regions are predominantly light in colour, there is natural
selection for white moths. The difference in habitats will mean there is only a
limited amount of genetic mixing between the two populations. Genetic drift
and the formation of two species could easily follow, given sufficient time.

Dean Haley.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!rigel.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Summary: natural selection and evolution
Keywords: another pickey scientist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 01:33:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tim Eckert) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dean Haley) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Magnusson) writes:

[Stuff about moths and sea grass deleted]

>  I don't know anything about the Sea grass, but I heard something different
>about the moths in G.B. that makes more sense to me.  For a species of moth
>to change from white to black that quickly would be pretty tough.  Those
>things take more time.  What I heard happened is that all the pollution in
>the air made the white moths stand out so that they were wiped out by the
>birds.  The dark moths, which existed at the same time as the white moths,
>were naturally hidden.  Thus it was a matter of simple natural selection,
>and not genetic evolution.  I wouldn't call the extermination of a species
>evolution.

Tim, think real hard back to your high school and college biology textbooks.
Evolution is not a genetic progression, but rather a series of hit and miss
trials.  An allele mutated in some part of a moth's gnome that caused its
offspring to be black.  Mutations can hurt an organism, help an organism, or
have no effect on the organism's health.  In this case it helped.  The black
moths survived better on the blackened tree trunks.
Simple natural selection drives evolution.  Natural selection killed the
dinosaurs and allowed the newly mutated mammals (another random mutation)
to survive.  We say that the most adaptable creature is the one most evolved,
but what that means is that it had all of the right mutations to allow its
species to survive through the years.
Natural selection occurs in the space of months, evolution occurs in the
space of hundred of years.

>Tim Eckert

Another pickey scientist.

dbn3.

------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail]   |
Bitnet: dbn7350@tamvenus           |         insert your own dumb quote. . .
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 05:25:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (erin s anderson) writes:
>
>>I agree
>>that the Quantum theory is quite the harsh blow to God.
>
>What I meant to say was, I DON'T think Quantum theory is a blow to God at all.
>Because a) one major attribute of God is that He can break the rules, and
>b) I don't understand quantum theory that much. :-)
>
>I would think that whether or not a quantum uncertainty is KNOWN depends on
>who knows it, and what he does.  If, at the end of the Schrodinger's Cat
>experiment (yes I know it's just a metaphor, nobody actually ever did it),
>the first scientist to arrive on the scene checks the cat (and if it's alive,
>he removes the poison or whatever, so the result won't change when the other
>scientists get there), then jumps out the window and falls thirty stories to
>his death, without recording whether the cat is alive or dead... is the result
>really "known"?  Is the cat STILL sorta-alive-sorta-dead until the scientists
>get there?  I would think so.

Disclaimer: I only took two years of undergrad physics at Caltech, so I'm not
an expert. The fact that the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment exists at all
is an indication of the fact that scientists are not immune to mysticism.  In
my opinion, the proper answer to the question "What is the state of the cat
before we open the box?" is simply "I don't know."  As I understand it (if I'm
wrong, would someone please explain to me how I'm wrong?), the Copenhagen
interpretation is not an essential part of QM.  It's just one way of
"interpreting" the equations.  There are other interpretations.  They all use
the same equations.  Whenever something observable is predicted, they predict
the same thing.  They differ on what the unobservable states are.  If this is
correct, then without the mysticism, when asked the state of the cat before the
box is opened, a physicist would simply answer, "Unobservable."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 16:33:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Colonel) writes...
>You missed the point, its not "juicy bodies" that they wish to eat. Since
>you are "a serious meditator for a number of years", you should know this.

I guess we'll have to call ourselves frivolous meditators now, Kath :-)
I've been meditating all my life and I never heard of it either.  Sounds
like just another scam to me.... and there are always so many to choose
from. ;-)

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pacdata!johnr
From: [e-mail] (John Reed)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 17:27:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Pacific Data Products
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>            ( Future Shock or Is the Rest of The World Digging In? )
>
>             The  asteroid  is just off of Pluto and large  shuttles  are
>        descending and landing in many locations  on Earth.  These  craft
>        can be cigar or saucer shaped, pyramidal or triangular in appear-
>        ance.   All, except the saucers, are dark in color and are  Draco
>        in every aspect.  These craft have been linked with human  abduc-
>        tions and mutilations and are now entering Earth's atmosphere  at
>        an alarming rate.  This is being reported by other countries that
>        censor UFO information less than the U.S.  People in other  coun-
>        tries  are  in  the know better than the  average  American.  The
>        result of this, when reality hits home, will be future shock  for
>        many in the United States.



This thread concerning the dracos has been prevalent in many other
postings to a.a.v.  It sounds extremely outrageous to me, but seems to
be accepted as a fact in this and the other postings.

My questions concerning this thread are numerous:



- Who is the source of this information, and how reputable are they?

- When did this story begin circulating?

- Is this just another dis-information thing from the CIA?

- This draco thing sounds nearly identical to the 'V' television series
  that aired a couple of years ago.  Could the draco story be merely
  a take-off on that series?

- Like in the 'V' show, can these dracos make themselves resemble humans?

- Has a huge asteroid been identified and tracked by astronomers yet?


Basically, I'm curious and just looking for information.  If information
has been posted in the past regarding this topic then I've missed it.

If anyone has information on the dracos, please post.


Thanks.


JR



--


   /------------------------------------------------------------------\
  |  John Reed                           {ucsd,uunet}!pacdata!johnr    |
  |  Pacific Data Products               [e-mail]   |
  |                    ---------------------                           |
  |     Interest on the Federal debt is now at about $1 billion per    |
  |     day and growing.             --From: CNN Crossfire--           |
   \------------------------------------------------------------------/
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 18:43:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
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miss this showing on fox, I hope it will come on again soon.
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 19:51:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
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Originator: grante@aquarius
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius

[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick):

> Disclaimer: I only took two years of undergrad physics at Caltech, so
> I'm not an expert. The fact that the Schrodinger's cat thought
> experiment exists at all is an indication of the fact that scientists
> are not immune to mysticism.  In my opinion, the proper answer to the
> question "What is the state of the cat before we open the box?" is
> simply "I don't know."

Ah, although we don't know the actual state before we do the
observation, we DO know the probablity distribution that we will
observe if we do repeated trials.  That makes the correct answer:

I don't know, _but_ there is a probablity of 0.5 that it is alive, and
a probability of 0.5 that it is dead.

Lest we underestimate the importance of knowing the probabilities of
the possible outcomes without being able to predict indivudual trials:

The casinos don't know where the roulette ball will stop or what the
next roll of the dice will reveal, but they DO know the probablities
of each outcome and they DO know that in the long run they get to keep
X percent of all the money that is bet.

P.S.

Does anybody know what X is for the typical Las Vegas casino?  (It's a
helluva lot lower that the 50% that the state lottery keeps!)

--
Grant Edwards                                  |Yow! Let me do my TRIBUTE to
Rosemount Inc.                                 |FISHNET STOCKINGS...
                                               |
[e-mail]                  |
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Billy Meier
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 20:47:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 1

read it
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FOX show : UFO Reports:Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 20:43:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
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   i miss the show
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 21:04:42 GMT
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 Over the past I heard alot about people who are visited by UFO's, and about pe
ple who have gottev captured by UFO's.  Sometimes I wondered if there is someth
ng it to , that may it is true. I don't know, but I wish that this question cou
d be solved.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 22:44:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
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Those Dracos seem pretty Jungian to me. I was an avid reader of
science fiction (one novel a day) when I was a kind, oh my,
38 years ago now -- time flies. There was this author, Jimmy
Guieu (French of course, you must have guessed I was French too)
who was a very prolific writer and had embarked on a series of
novels on the same theme: the bad reptilian horrors from Deneb
posturing as the saviours of Terra and her Terrans when their
REAL intent was to enslave and eat them. Fortunately, the
human-looking good guys and (buxom) gals from Vega (I think it
was) come to the rescue and... The Snake in the Garden of Eden
again.

(I don't know how that will look on your screens. I pasted it
from a direct reply to john@pacdata, returned by our Mailer-Daemon.
Another unhelpful reptilian monster, that Daemon)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 00:15:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov4.060942.25162@nooOrganization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Fulbright) writes:
>
>A previous poster said something which always bugs me - how can the
>goverment cover up something of this magnitude for 40+ years? There
>must have been considerable turnover in the organizations which are
>supposed to be doing the cover up - it seems at least one person would
>have wanted to spill the beans and come out with a photo of 10 saucers in
>a hanger with USAF people standing around it and would have gone to
>the New York Times or Wall Street Journal to break the story of the century/
>millineum/history of planet?  So far the people I've seen interviewed who
>claim to have been involved are always 'a janitor who cleaned up a mess
>made by a short alien' or something.  In 40+ years I would expect a
>huge project like this to have leaked something substantial - people just
>arent that good at keeping secrets.
>
>Its really seducing to think there is something big we havent been told
>about. But I have trouble believing it could be covered-up so well for
>so long.
>
>michael
>[e-mail]


 Point well taken.

 Maybe we should lobby our congresspeople to nominate one of these USAF
UFO investigators for the Supreme Court. Then we would know what they
ate for lunch every day of their life, and whether they discriminate against
their associates based on planetary origin.

 Joe


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO's and the world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 00:28:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov4.060942.25162@nooOrganization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Tasmania
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Michael Fulbright) writes:
>
>A previous poster said something which always bugs me - how can the
>goverment cover up something of this magnitude for 40+ years? There
>must have been considerable turnover in the organizations which are
>supposed to be doing the cover up - it seems at least one person would
>have wanted to spill the beans and come out with a photo of 10 saucers in
>a hanger with USAF people standing around it and would have gone to
>the New York Times or Wall Street Journal to break the story of the century/
>millineum/history of planet?  So far the people I've seen interviewed who
>claim to have been involved are always 'a janitor who cleaned up a mess
>made by a short alien' or something.  In 40+ years I would expect a
>huge project like this to have leaked something substantial - people just
>arent that good at keeping secrets.
>
Maybe the government is just pretending there's a conspiracy so that no one
will realize the real truth that the government doesn't know what's going on
either.

=== CAPTAIN MARVEL JONES ===

"The monsters haven't turned blue yet and I need to eat more dots"
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From: [e-mail] (Ing. Baldomero Cardenas Candanosa)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: An UFO over Mexico city.
Summary: ?
Keywords: when the sun eclipse was.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 00:55:52 GMT
Organization: I.T.E.S.M. Campus Monterrey
Lines: 4

During the sun eclipse last july, many people use theirs video recorders to
film that fenomenal, and one person recorded an ufo standing without movement in the sky; I saw the film in a t.v. program and recorded that program.
The film show a metalic spot in the sky for a few seconds and suddenly it
disapers.
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From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 16:37:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17200 alt.alien.visitors:2842

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Shafto) writes:
>Boy, this Winston guy is one goofy fellow, huh?

Yeah who is this guy anyway. Have you seen his NAZI antisemitic ravings
on talk.politics.mideast. I guess there is an unattended terminal at a
lunatic asylum somewhere!

>--
>*Eric Shafto             * Sometimes, I think we are alone.  Sometimes I  *
>*Institute for the       * think we are not.  In either case, the thought *
>*    Learning Sciences   * is quite staggering.                           *
>*Northwestern University *     -- R. Buckminster Fuller                   *


ALEX BUNKER
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 04:01:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick):
>
>> Disclaimer: I only took two years of undergrad physics at Caltech, so
>> I'm not an expert. The fact that the Schrodinger's cat thought
>> experiment exists at all is an indication of the fact that scientists
>> are not immune to mysticism.  In my opinion, the proper answer to the
>> question "What is the state of the cat before we open the box?" is
>> simply "I don't know."
>
>Ah, although we don't know the actual state before we do the
>observation, we DO know the probablity distribution that we will
>observe if we do repeated trials.  That makes the correct answer:
>
>I don't know, _but_ there is a probablity of 0.5 that it is alive, and
>a probability of 0.5 that it is dead.

True, but the equations, with or without the Copenhagen interpretation, predict
the probabilities of the outcomes.  My impression is that the Copenhagen
interpretation is excess baggage.  Are there any quantum physicists reading this
newsgroup who can render an expert opinion on whether the Copenhagen
interpretation is in any way useful in dealing with observable states?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!raven.alaska.edu!acad2.alaska.edu!asljl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 23:29:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Alaska
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad2.alaska.edu

ATTENTION ALL!!!!!! THERE ARE 4 QUESTIONS I MUST ASK. IF YOU WISH TO A HOLD OF
ME TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER CALL ASLJL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF N.A.S.A?\
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE HUMAN RACE?
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI (E.S.P)?
HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?
O.K. FIVE, DO YOU POSESS PSI(E.S.P)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!spoc!brunix!cgy
From: [e-mail] (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 06:09:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Curtis Yarvin)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 10
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Onec was on the astral plane of vibration on Venus so to get her to come
>here they sent her to a temple on Venus where they lowered her vibrational
>freq.

Oooh!  Hot Venusian Babes.  Care to lower your vibrational freq. for me,
Onec?

c
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!spoc!brunix!cgy
From: [e-mail] (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: An UFO over Mexico city.
Keywords: when the sun eclipse was.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 06:12:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Curtis Yarvin)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ing. Baldomero Cardenas Candanosa) writes:

>During the sun eclipse last july, many people use theirs video recorders to
>film that fenomenal, and one person recorded an ufo standing without
>movement in the sky; I saw the film in a t.v. program and recorded that
>program.  The film show a metalic spot in the sky for a few seconds and
>suddenly it disapers.

Probably condensed smog.  When visiting Mexico City, be sure to wear a
respirator - and a hard hat.

c
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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part I
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Nov 91 20:35:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
...
> I suspect that many of us here are from Venus (and elsewhere)
> as the soul makes its' sojourn throughout the various eternity
> systems....                                           ^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^^^^
What is an "eternity system"?

Craig

-- "It's funny how the colours    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  of the like real world only         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  seem really real when you                Austin: [e-mail] --
--  viddy them on the screen."                      VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 11:47:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 26

Curtis posted something about a woman going to a Temple
of Love on Venus in order to lower her vibrational frequency
in order to come here (in a previous post by Don Showen)...

This brought to mind something I just read about the other
day in the autobiography of HazratInayat Khan (Master of Life,
modern Sufi Mystic)...in it the book discusses that one of
the mystic's powers is that of changing the PITCH of the
vibration of the ATOMS of his body, and by doing so, could
become INVISIBLE.

As an example, the author mentioned ice, water, and vapour...saying:
"The three are the sme, differing only in the number of the
vibrations of their atoms, consequently there is a difference
in density."  (Wil van Beek, author of the book: Hazrat Inayat
Khan, Master of Life, Modern Sufi Mystic).

Now as far as Curtis wanting hot Venusian babes to lower their
frequency for him, let me ask:  Curtis, are you 'worthy' of such???
Remember, in Temples of Love, the sacred is always that which is
in mind first...not lust.  :-)

Kathy

"When Thou tunest me to a higher pitch, then I feel pain."
    --Tagore
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 12:04:01 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 46

Craig Becker asks, "what is an eternity system"?

This is a term that just 'popped into' my mind as I wrote
the posting.  It is from the writings of Ann Ree Colton
who was the founder of NISCIENCE...an initiatory school
through which one may take lessons in the mail for a very
low fee on a monthly basis.  Ann Ree Colton is now deceased
but her husband, Jonathan Murro, carries on the work and
the ministry.

This foundation has many many tapes and books by Ann Ree Colton,
who, to me, was a great carrier of light in her own way.

From the little I know, I would say that the Galaxy that we
are in right now, here, is an eternity system.  In the book
"Galaxy Gate II, The Angel Kingdom" by Ann Ree Colton and
Jonathan Murro (available from Ann Ree Colton Foundation,
PO Box 2057, Glendale, CA 91209, she says in Chapter 3,
"Omnipresence-Mathematics":

"Every eternity system has a Fther.  There ar other degrees of
Fatherhood supporting the major Father in each eternity system.

Absolute God is in control of all.  Conditioned God--the Father--
is in Hierarchy-control of the power of Imaging.  The duality system
in this eternity is controlled and mastered by Hierarchy.  Direct
Hierarch-knowledge comes to man through our Father, or Conditioned
God, who shapes and forms all life in this eternity system through
His *Constant* which has imaged man."

--

Actually, I have not read this book in its' entirety, so am not
really qualified as to *exactly* what Ann Ree Colton is saying
about "eternity systems".  Better perhaps you read the book
and draw your own conclusions/opinions, etc.

I would also recommend her book, "Prophet for the Archangels".
Very very good.

Kathy

"When persons are endowed with timely spiritual gifts, their training
in the use of these gifts is under the direction of Heaven."

   --Ann Ree Colton, "Prophet for the Archangels"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!srg!doconnor
From: [e-mail] (Dennis O'Connor x4982)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Casino odds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 15:14:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news user)
Reply-To: uunet!srg!titania!doconnor
Organization: Some
Lines: 25
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 5 Nov 1991 19:51:41 GM

] The casinos don't know where the roulette ball will stop or what the
] next roll of the dice will reveal, but they DO know the probablities
] of each outcome and they DO know that in the long run they get to keep
] X percent of all the money that is bet.
] P.S.
] Does anybody know what X is for the typical Las Vegas casino?  (It's a
] helluva lot lower that the 50% that the state lottery keeps!)

The roulette take depends on the number of "zeroes" on the wheel,
since the house always wins on a zero. Hi-class casinos like
in Monte Carlo have only one zero ( a '0' ) and take less than 3%.
Good Las Vegas casinoes I believe have two seroes ( a '0' and a '00' )
and take just over 5%. Some lesser casinoes have three zeroes
( '0', '00' and '000' ) and take in about 7.5%.

This is easy to see : a bet on black or red pays equal to the bet,
and would be an expected payoff of 1 except that 'zeroes' don't
count as red or black. So if I bet a dollar on black and a dollar
on red, I'd never make money, but I'd lose money is a zero came up.
The analysis for other forms of betting roulette are similar.

--
--
Dennis O'Connor,        uunet!srg!titania!doconnor
non-representative.             Send lawyers, guns and money ...
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Casino odds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 18:04:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>    <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dennis O'Connor x4982) writes:
>] The casinos don't know where the roulette ball will stop or what the
>] next roll of the dice will reveal, but they DO know the probablities
>] of each outcome and they DO know that in the long run they get to keep
>] X percent of all the money that is bet.
>] P.S.
>] Does anybody know what X is for the typical Las Vegas casino?  (It's a
>] helluva lot lower that the 50% that the state lottery keeps!)
>
>The roulette take depends on the number of "zeroes" on the wheel,
>since the house always wins on a zero.

Not quite true.  You ARE allowed to bet on zero, so the house doesn't always
win on it.  What IS true is that the payoffs are based on the probabilities
calculated without the zeros taken into account.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Helpful hints for UFO Contactees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 16:24:26 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 98

After watching the FOX UFO Report and reminiscing over past such documentaries,
I have several hints for potential UFO contactees who want to go public.
If you're going to present a story to people about how your alien friends go
whiz, first read a couple issues of Discover magazine to find out what's
hot and trendy.  Billy Meier clearly didn't, his aliens zazz around Pleiades
at the "speed of thought", that's about 40 mph guys as measured by lowly
earthling scums using their antiquated voltage clamps.  Bob Lazar claims he's
a top scientist, but he has stated that all those nifty saucers out there near
Las Vegas run on cold fusion.  We all know what happened to that, but nice try
Bob.  Would somebody please track this guy down and ask him a few physics
related questions and see if he even knows Newton's laws...
  Right now, there are plenty of really safe buzzwords that you, the semi-
literate UFO contactee, can use without fear of embarassing scientific
rebuttal in the short term future.  So take heart!  Here's a list of things
to use when you're describing your buddies from Betelgeuse and their
AWESOME technology...

1.  Nanotechnology:  What may possibly be the biggest potential breakthrough
    in materials science since they invented fire.  Talk about how their
    entire ship is a gigantic sentient computer.  Describe how the rooms of
    the ship adjust to suit the occupants.  Read a book by Eric Drexler and
    let your imagination run wild!  Nobody but nobody has used this yet and
    it's been around for YEARS! Talk about how your implant was a nanocomputer
    and that once it was removed, it automatically self-destructed itself
    into a lump of glass.  That explains a LOT!

2.  Superstrings:  That's what all those super-huffy physics types are trying
    to tell us makes up the Universe.  Hey, they may be right, they may be
    wrong, but without a really big particle accelerator, we'll never know
    heh heh!  Talk about how the aliens use their warp drive to pluck
    superstrings of the cosmos and ride them to travel almost instantly from
    one place to another.  Sounds good to me!  I'm a trekkie!  One of my
    favorite episodes involved doing just that so IT MUST BE TRUE!

3.  Emergent Computation:  This is a relatively new field all about playing
    really big Life games.  Lots and lots of people think we might learn
    a lot about the self-assembly of life forms and consciousness itself
    from the research being done here.  So talk about how your alien
    allies are one gigantic communal mind in constant communication with
    each other working collectively to solve the REALLY BIG PROBLEMS(tm)!
    It's hard to prove you can't do anything here, so feel free to
    extrapolate, but watch out for:

4.  Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem:  This is a real bummer of a theorem
    that essentially says that you can't know everything.  It has been made
    popular in recent years by that skeptic party pooper Douglas Hofstadter.
    Never fear though!  Have your aliens talk about how there are absolute
    limits to what any being can know, and make it the cornerstone of their
    religion and philosophy for us monkeyboys and womyn.  The best part
    of this is that it's all true!  For bonus points, mention how the
    aliens admire the great insight of the late Goedel.

5.  DNA:  It looks like a lot of our genetic code basically serves as
    spacer material (introns) between all of the important and exciting
    stuff (exons).  Bacteria and older organisms have far less of this
    possibly useless DNA and it is theorized that this is due to them being
    much older than later life forms.  Have your pals from another planet
    describe how they have edited out the useless sections of thir genome
    and are now overall much more efficient and live for many thousands
    of years.  We won't be able to do such things for years!  And nobody
    knows just why we age!  Maybe this is why!  If they defy you, dare them
    to prove you wrong heh heh!  Pesky scientists...

6.  Rational drug design:  This the focus of a bunch of chemist/computer
    scientist wannabees.  They think that they will be able to eventually
    design molecules at will that can perform all sorts of wonders such as
    cure AIDS, cure cancer, correct genetic defects, and help lead to the
    creation of #1 SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRR....  Luckily, we're many
    years away from the answer to this question so feel free to talk
    about how the doctors from Deneb fixed your asthma, zapped your tumors,
    and KO'ed your cold.  It all sounds possible, and get a doctor to examine
    you and demonstrate you indeed have no tumors!  WOW!  You can even
    describe the advanced scanner they placed you in and embellish it with
    elements of #1 and #3.  A sure winner!  Much better than Lambda rays!
    I'm going to use it again and again!

7.  Chaos and Fractals:  Hey, you've seen the Mandelbrot set!  You've heard
    of the crop circle based on it!  You saw how those supposedly clever
    science types said this was impossible!  Little do they know that the
    Mandelbrot set has been PROVEN to map to a circle!  It's true!  It just
    looks different!  But then again, so do we all!  This crop fractal was
    clearly their attempt to show us that indeed the Earth mathematicians
    are right!  So talk about how the aliens explained that life is a fractal
    in Hilbert space!  Hilbert space has infinite dimensions so it sounds
    like a really neat place to visit!  Physicists talk about it all the time!
    So it must exist somewhere!  Case closed!
       The other really nifty idea is chaos.  This is the idea that small
    errors in what we measure will eventually overwhelm our ability to predict
    long term behavior.  Sounds good to me!  Your fractal friends from the
    furthest reaches can include this in their religion.  Have them state
    that the earthlings Feigenbaum and Lorenz are indeed wise but need
    further spiritual development before they will understand...

There, you now have a much more up to date list of future technologies.  I
apologize to anyone who thinks I left anything out, but hey, none of that
will EVER work anyway because the aliens don't use it!  I don't want to
hear another word about inertialess drives, Lambda Rays, the speed of
thought, or crystal power.  Phooooey! Think 1990's guys!  Not 1890's...
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From: [e-mail] (The Watcher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE:Scott the Great
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 18:44:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] ()
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 11


>Bob Lazar claims he's
>a top scientist, but he has stated that all those nifty saucers out there near
>Las Vegas run on cold fusion.  We all know what happened to that, but nice try
>Bob.  Would somebody please track this guy down and ask him a few physics
>related questions and see if he even knows Newton's laws...

I realize Scott that you may not understand or believe everything that Bob Lazar has said, but does your inability to understand a process make it foolishness.
Mr. Lazars grasp of an elimentry gravitational drive systems is sound.  Don't you even understand Einstein's general and specific theories of relativity.  Perhaps you should reconsider your fundimental concepts of physics before entering into any bashings, which serve no one.

                        The Watcher
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fox's UFO Program
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 18:31:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 2

I miss the show on FOX, It sound like it was a good show.  Do you know when it
will come on again.
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From: [e-mail] (The Watcher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mr. Lazar: a request.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 18:49:59 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] ()
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 4


I would like to find Bob Lasar's Email address or some other way of contacting him personally.  If anyone has such information please forward it to me personally.

                        The Watcher
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From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE:Scott the Great
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 19:39:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 28

Uh oh, looks like I'm in deep doodoo...

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (The Watcher) says:
>
>I realize Scott that you may not understand or believe everything that Bob    r
>Laza
>has said, but does your inability to understand a process make it foolishness.
>Mr. Lazars grasp of an elimentry gravitational drive systems is sound.  Don't
>you even understand Einstein's general and specific theories of relativity.
>Perhaps you should reconsider your fundimental concepts of physics before
>entering into any bashings, which serve no one.

You're absolutely right!  I DON'T know how to make cold fusion work...
Does Bobby?  Last I heard (from the FOX UFO Report), he was fixing
drag racers which run off a primitive mix of hydrocarbons.  Perhaps he
should incorporate an "elementary gravitational drive system" to get that
racer's edge.  I know that blue aura around his car would make
him an instant media sensation...  I can see it now... GO SPEED LAZAR!
GO SPEED LAZAR! GO!

Remember 2.99e8 m/s... It's not just a good idea... It's the law...
Even for Bobby...

>
                                                 The Watcher

Scott
"I'm Popi the UFO man!  BEEP!  BEEP!"
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From: [e-mail] (Andrea Chisholm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Visitor - Soltec
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 18:38:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 4

I always hear about people who are being tested by aliens, and about people who
are captured by aliens.  Sometimes I wonder if there is something it all of thi
  This happenings have been around for along time.  Are we just imaging these
hings ?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Helpful hints for UFO Contactees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 21:38:52 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 14


In article <[e-mail]>, Scott the Great <[e-mail]> writes...

No wonder they call you Scott The Great... that was a GREAT note, Scott.
:-)

thanks

---
Mary Stanley
        (INTERNET,UUCP) [e-mail]
        (UUCP)        ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
        (INTERNET)    [e-mail]
---
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From: [e-mail] (Robert T Fanning)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 05:17:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: James Cook University, North Queensland
Lines: 16
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17256 alt.paranormal:3582 alt.alien.visitors:2859 talk.religion.newage:7603

Well, it seems to me that science is based on fact,
the best most religions ( especially Christian ) has
is history, which might not be the absolute truth
because it was written from the point of view of
those who preached it.

DONNING FIRE PROOF SUIT

Still, I wouldn't throw all religion away, because
some good has come out off it, though it can be
very doubtful when it mixes with politics.

--
Robert Fanning
JCU, Australia
--------------
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Nov 91 22:20:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>In reading the contents of this newsletter (recently posted
>by Don Allen), when I got to the part about the Dracos wanting
>to use humans as 'food' the thought occurred to me that this
>itself may be an idea inspired by the 'dark' forces to further
>implant fear and confusion into the hearts of the people.


An interesting thought is to compare modern versions of the Draco
eats-human-scenario with the existing literature of devils,demons
and "things that go bump in the night".

No one that I have ever come in contact with has ever seen a Draco
but that of itself doesn't prove anything.

I've also never seen a grey but quite a few folks have had the encounter.

I would recommend that you write to Kortron in the address provided
in his newsletter. I have spoken with him a few times by voice and
found him quite knowledgable. As for the pyramid...if you write him he will
send you his booklet type newsletters (the ones I put here are just the
ascii equivalent) and in the booklet-type are photos and a running
commentary on how the construction is proceeding. The pyramid is quite
fascinating to see in the photos!

Don




--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 02:18:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Alaska
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad2.alaska.edu


HEY YOU ALL OUT THERE
LISTEN UP I GOT SOME SERIOUS
QUESTIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR GOOD SERIOUS ANSWERS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NASA?
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI(E.S.P)
DO YOU HAVE PSI ABLITY
HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?

THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR ANYBODY IN ANY NEWSGROUP. WE ARE SERIOUS
ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND STARTING A NEW COLONY THERE
WE HAVE ONE POSSIBLE ENGINE DESIGN BUT WE NEED THE HELP OF OTHERS
WHO FEEL AS WE DO. WE IS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT LIFE ON EARTH IS JUST
GETTING TO RIDICULOUS AND FEELTHIS,

ARE YOU AS DISGUSTED WITH NASA AS WE ARE? HELP US TO THE MOON
i am not yelling i am announcing i know the rules of vax protocol

signed sincerely
Lady Rhavyn.
kp
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 11:25:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
> HEY YOU ALL OUT THERE
> LISTEN UP I GOT SOME SERIOUS
> QUESTIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR GOOD SERIOUS ANSWERS.
>
> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NASA?
> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI(E.S.P)
> DO YOU HAVE PSI ABLITY
> HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?
>
> THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR ANYBODY IN ANY NEWSGROUP. WE ARE SERIOUS
> ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND STARTING A NEW COLONY THERE
> WE HAVE ONE POSSIBLE ENGINE DESIGN BUT WE NEED THE HELP OF OTHERS
> WHO FEEL AS WE DO. WE IS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT LIFE ON EARTH IS JUST
> GETTING TO RIDICULOUS AND FEELTHIS,
>
> ARE YOU AS DISGUSTED WITH NASA AS WE ARE? HELP US TO THE MOON
> i am not yelling i am announcing i know the rules of vax protocol
>
> signed sincerely
> Lady Rhavyn.
> kp

    Would you care to share details of your plan with us?  Maybe you
could tell us how your engine works?  We won't laugh, honest.

Jason
[e-mail]

P.S.  I don't see why your post has to be in capitals, even if it
is an announcement.  To me you are shouting.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter: Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 12:43:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 49

Don Allen writes that perhaps the Dracos could be compared
todevils/demons and 'things that go bump in the night', etc.

Don:  Thanks for the post.  I understand about that stuff
(such as the devils/demons that attempted to distrub/divert
various saints from their path, and the story of the Buddha
and the demons he confronted).  But to say that Dracos want
to 'eat' up people?  The confrontation one meets as he steps
upon the thresshold into higher consciousness (perhaps, i.e.,
the gates into Paradise) are wrought, perhaps with forces, etc.
that would try to deny him entrance until he/she prove himself
worthy and intent pure, etc.

But I am still having difficulty with the idea that they wish
to PHYSICALLY eat us.  Now someone on this net recently inferred
that I was rather ignorant, and had I been a serious meditator,
I would KNOW what all this means.  And this person never posted
back my question to him as to WHAT it means if I 'have it wrong'?
(I asked him to enlighten me and he did not.)  Which makes me
wonder if he knows what he is talking about.  Any one can criticize
another and then take off when the serious questions start.

Don, can you repost the addess and phone number of Korton? (You
suggested I call him, so I will need the phone).  Or please email
it to me privately?

Can you tell me what "Ovotron" means?

I ask, because in my readings of the book, "Galaxy Gate II" by
Ann Ree Colton, she mentions the word 'omnitron' (which sure sounds
SIMILAR to ovitron):

She says, "In the higher etheric body or everlasting body there
are *Omnitron* particles gatheredfrom every Solar System of the
great Galaxy in which man dwells.  These Omnitron particles or
eternal atoms make up the higher etheric body.  This is the "deathless"
body.

Colton goes on to state, "When the lesser etheric body lacks soul-
connection with the higher etheric body, one suffers disease and
inevitably, death.  A soul-disconnected peron is doomed to sickness
in this Self-Genesis Age--a sickness little understood by scientists
and which will be doomed incurable by physicians."

Is there any one out there who can enlighten me on these two terms:
ovotron and omnitron?

Thanks,
Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (mary.spinazola)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO"S
Keywords: I Know
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 13:39:59 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 24

Enough of this talk.  I'm sure some people out there have seen
UFO'S but are afraid to tell because of backlash.


Well I saw 3 ufo's when I was 11 or 12 years old and they were very
very close.  Their maneuverings were horizontial, stationary and verticle
and all in a very small area while they looked at me.  I don't remember
any thing else except I didn't remember  the incident unitl I was
in my late 20's; I am 50 yrs. old in January.

I really don't want any personal mail but you can talk on the News, it
doesen't matter to me.

I for one know they exits, I don't have to guess.  I know other
things but I can't visually prove to myself but there is no doubt in
my mind.

All this doesn't change my life too much (I don't think)  I still pay
taxes and and trying to find happiness and my place in this world.

Sincerely,
Enjoy

Mary
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From: [e-mail] (Bondosan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Venus Visitor == Conehead?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 14:29:42 GMT
References: alt.thorazine
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: lacking
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3

>>>In regards to the questions  about what Lambda radiation is I hereby
>>>submit the following (mis-) information [...]
>>>Her name is Omnic Onec [...]

[e-mail]:
>>Please stick to your usual fantasy routine; it's much more entertaining.
>>I'm beginning to like your Venusian friends better than the Coneheads.

Well, "Onec" is an anagram for "Cone" and if "OMnic" is actually "ONnic"
plus an "e" (wouldn't want the Earthers to eat her soul by knowing her
true vibrational name, I guess), we have Beldar's daughter "Connie Cone".

--
          I am the Great Aluminum Sulfate!
 Mystic healer of blonde females, a colorless salt, Tron of the eighth
 vibration (What kind of batteries do we need for that?  Two D's?), son
 of the Great Bauxite and the Rather Nasty Sulphuric Acid!  Let's do lunch!
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From: [e-mail] (Robert P Cunico)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A scientist sounds off.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 16:47:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: UB
Lines: 32
Nntp-Posting-Host: autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu


    Ok, I can accept that some users of this board are
not vary fond of scientists. We tend to doubting Thomas's
when it comes to the paranormal. You must try to understand
that we need more than unidentified lights in the sky and
grainy photos to convince us that some unusual phenomena
is occuring. And generally, we are not fans of 'goverment
conspiracy' theories (I'm sure you all know to what I refer).
You should also know that the very scientists that would be
involved in such conspiracies are members of other groups
that you all can easily access. I/they would be most happy
to respond to you polite questions and comments.
    Mainly my reason for posting here is that my interest
in science evolved from a childhood interested in pop science
and the paranormal. Very early on though I recognized that
some things (the paranormal) required a lot more faith
than others (the sciences). It was from this that my interests
evolved from pop-sci to astronomy to physics. My point
is this, try mainstream science, you may find that we are
not (generally) 'holier than thou' (like periodicals
Science News & Scientific America). You might find some
serious discussions about alien life (although not much on
visitors though).


-----------______________---------_____-----___---__-_-_-_-_-

Bob Cunico  does physics @ SUNY University Center at Buffalo

Responses encouraged!

_____________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Boehm)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 17:28:50 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (NETnews        )
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
Lines: 10
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17270 alt.alien.visitors:2867


I read COMMUNION and TRANSFORMATION over the summer.  COMMUNION was very good.
I found it to be very believable and, at times, terrifying.  TRANSFORMATION
was ridiculous.  After hearing about how his stereo talks to him and how
his publisher encountered aliens at the local B. Dalton, I was sure this guy
was ready for the loony-bin.  Are there any good articles in response to
these books, pro or con?


.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera
From: [e-mail] (Eric Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Zen Intergalactic Ninja
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 17:15:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 15
Originator: eherrera@zinfandel

I saw a piece in this morning's San Jose Mercury News about a new
product/character/phenomenon to be marketed by the same folks who
brought us Teen-Age Ninja Turtles.  It's to be called "Zen
Intergalactic Ninja."  The article says that he's here to "clean up
the Earth."  Expect a merchandising and media blitz similar to
Michaelangelo, Rafael, Donatello and Leonardo.  In the illustration,
"Z.I.N." is brandishing some sort of weapon (staff- or sword-like),
and he looks like your classic "grey", except with much bigger
muscles.  Any comments?

Also, has anyone read Dr. Jacques Vallee's _Revelations_, and if so,
what is their opinion of it?

Eric P. Herrera / [e-mail] / I don't represent Metaphor
"This ain't no technological breakdown; this is the road to Hell"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj
From: [e-mail] (Robotic Systems)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: COVER UP?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 18:43:05 GMT
Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email)
Lines: 28

I apologize in advance if I was not suppose to post this after
reading it on CompuServe. If this is a wrong thing to do, please
let me know, and I will not do it again!

Is the following what really happened, or just a cover up of a real
UFO sighting by many people?

TEL AVIV (NOV. 7) DPA - A soldier who fell asleep
on guard duty had hundreds of Israelis believing
that aliens from outer space were invading their
town, and caused a full military alert to be
annouced, Israel Army Radio reported Thursday.
   Hundreds of residents of the northern town of
Bet She'an had reported seeing a mysterious circle
of light high in the sky on Tuesday night.
   Police confirmed the sighting and in
conjunction with the army declared a military
alert until the light disappeared at dawn.
   The mystery was solved the next day when it was
discovered that a soldier who nodded off at his
guard post slumped against a powerful searchlight,
flicking on its switch and directing its glaring
beam into the sky, the radio reported.
--
===============================================================================
Clint Laskowski        U.S. MAIL:  P. O. Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin  53110-0552
ROBOTIC SYSTEMS         INTERNET:  [e-mail]      VOICE: [phone]
===============================================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!dnx33
From: [e-mail] (G.A.S.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Relativity
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 18:50:47 GMT
References: Too many
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: lacking
Lines: 25
Originator: dnx33@tellab3
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3


[e-mail] (Scott the Great) says:
>Uh oh, looks like I'm in deep doodoo...

[e-mail] (The Watcher) says:
>>I realize Scott that you may not understand or believe everything that
>>Bob Lazar has said, but does your inability to understand a process make
>>it foolishness.  Mr. Lazars grasp of an elimentry gravitational drive
>>systems is sound.  Don't you even understand Einstein's general and
>>specific theories of relativity.  Perhaps you should reconsider your
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>fundimental concepts of physics before entering into any bashings, which
>>serve no one.

>>                                                 The Watcher

Um, Watcher, I hate to make *you* look like you don't understand Relativity,
but it's called "Special Relativity" not "Specific Relativity".  I
can send you a photocopy of a section of an elementary text if you give
me a USPS address.
                -GAS
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political
view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is
left as an exercise for your kill-file."      ~Bertil Jonell
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From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 20:01:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3584 alt.alien.visitors:2871 sci.skeptic:17275 talk.religion.newage:7612

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>Maybe you could take a Rolls-Royce car, dismount it and produce a
>Cadillac, by a lot of mechanic work. That would only show that those
>two cars are made out of similar materials (iron, plastic, etc.). It
>would still not show where the original Rolls-Royce came from.

Evolution is not X turning into Y, it's X descending into X1, and X2, with
X1 and X2 having been in mutual isolation long enough to become different
enough that they become incompatible.

Even then, there may be an X3 compatible with X1, and with X2, just like
there's dialects of German between "standard" German and Dutch.

If evolution didn't exist, we'd all have the same skin color.
Humans have branched off too.  They just haven't been isolated enough to
have diverged.  But it makes no sense to aceept the phenomenon of branching and
yet place arbitrary limits on how far divergence could go.  Common sense alone
says that if two groups are allowed to develop apart from one another long
enough they will eventually become incompatible.  You see that with languages
all over the place, you see it with cultures, and even religions and other
cognitive structures, not just with biological hardware.
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Zen Intergalactic Ninja
Keywords: vallee revelations
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 22:10:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Herrera) writes:
|> I saw a piece in this morning's San Jose Mercury News about a new
|> product/character/phenomenon to be marketed by the same folks who
|> brought us Teen-Age Ninja Turtles.  It's to be called "Zen
|> Intergalactic Ninja."  The article says that he's here to "clean up
|> the Earth."  Expect a merchandising and media blitz similar to
|> Michaelangelo, Rafael, Donatello and Leonardo.  In the illustration,
|> "Z.I.N." is brandishing some sort of weapon (staff- or sword-like),
|> and he looks like your classic "grey", except with much bigger
|> muscles.  Any comments?
|>

I have been waiting for a "grey-like" character to turn up in a movie
or TV show, but I never thought of comic books!


|> Also, has anyone read Dr. Jacques Vallee's _Revelations_, and if so,
|> what is their opinion of it?
[...]

I just finished _Revelations_.

As with _Dimensions_ and _Confrontations_, I tend to agree with the
*majority* of what Vallee says. In _Revelations_ he pulls out all the stops
and trounces on the current govt-conspiracy/crashes/little-grey-gynecologists/
underground-bases/hypnosis/New-Age material that dominates North American
UFology. He actually sounds a bit like Philip Klass :-)

I would agree that the UFO community needs some trouncing, and that a lot
of crap is floating around these days, and that some of this crap is potentially
dangerous. I would also agree that the gov't could (sometimes) be using UFOs
as a cover for more mundane (but secret) activities.

Where I tend to disagree with Vallee is in the arguments he uses to support
his claims. For example, he seems to imply (*my* interpretation remember) that
because William Cooper thinks that the moon has a dark-side (wrong), that
everything else William Cooper says should be disregarded (Cooper was talking
about an alleged alien base on the dark side of the moon.) This style of argument
gets on my nerves, besides, there are *plenty* of other reasons to question
William Cooper's information (which Vallee does go into) so why get petty.
Vallee also does this with a statement by John(?) Lear that the aliens we
are dealing with are *billions* of years ahead of us. This may be a stupid
thing to allege, and it does tend to discredit Lear to a degree, but Vallee
made too big a deal of it (IMO of course). Everyone says stupid things and
everyone is occasionally wrong.

I really enjoyed _Revelations_ over all.


Does anyone else have any comments?


--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail] |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 23:53:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 14
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Thu, 7 Nov 1991 17:28:50 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>
> I read COMMUNION and TRANSFORMATION over the summer.  COMMUNION was very good.
> I found it to be very believable and, at times, terrifying.  TRANSFORMATION
> was ridiculous.  After hearing about how his stereo talks to him and how
> his publisher encountered aliens at the local B. Dalton, I was sure this guy
> was ready for the loony-bin.  Are there any good articles in response to
> these books, pro or con?
>

    I'm sure the name Philip Klass is a dirty word around here, but if you
want some subjective insight concerning Streiber, you should read 'UFO
Abductions, A Dangerous Business".
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Some strange happenings.......
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 23:02:44 GMT
Organization: Ziff-Davis, Medford MA
Lines: 115



    I consider myself a UFO buff and have always been very intrigued
by the possibility of alien existence.  I've been reading accounts and
accumulating literature off and on since I was a kid, around 15 years
worth.  I've also been reading this newsgroup for a couple of months
and have found I've only read the tip of the iceberg on the subject.

    I'm no expert, and I've never seen a UFO or an alien, but too
much is happening related to this topic to continually discount and
pass encounters off as halucinations, or people just being nuts.  Though
I haven't had any personal experience, other than two occasions of missing
time, and once seeing a red light in the middle of a swamp while skimobiling,
I have had 2 perfectly normal, rational, intelligent people relay UFO en-
counters, and another relay an incidence of missing time.  None of these
people were taking medication, or under drug or alcohol influence at the
time of their encounters.

    My own experiences with lost time both happened while I was
alone, isn't that always the way.  The first happened when I was
about 14, just 15 minutes walking time from my home.  It was winter,
late January, and my brother and I were playing on the ice of a frozen
swamp just down the road.  After a while I decided I wanted to go explore
the woods across the swamp, we had never been over there before.  We crossed
the swamp, and entered the woods and began walking down a snow covered dirt
road.  My brother was only 11, and after a couple of minutes wanted to head
home.  I was too curious, so I continued alone and he started home.  I soon
came out to a place I recognized, and walked home via regular roads.  When
I arrived home, I found that my brother had gotten home 2 1/2 hours before.
Not believing it took me that long, my brother and I retraced my route the
following weekend, and it only took just under 1 hour to walk.  I didn't
stop at all my first time through, and to this day have no idea where that
hour and a half went.

    The second incident was just 3 summers ago.  I was at a graduation
party for a friend, and did on this occasion have a few drinks.  It was
around 1:00 a.m. in late June, and I went out of the house to get some
air.  I laid down in the front yard and fell asleep.  The next thing I
know I'm standing up and very groggy in a completely enclosed back yard
of someone's house.  The house was on 1 side and a 6-foot wooden fence
was the other 3 sides.  While still groggy I felt around the fence for
a latch and eventually found it, and got out.  Having no idea where I
was I decided to walk until I recognized something.  After a short time
I walked by a school I new, I was 2 miles from the party.  I walked back
and met up with friends near the party that had been out looking for me.
Believe me, I've had much more to drink on many occasions before and
since that night and never went through anything like that.  I doubt I
sleepwalked 2+ miles, since I've never walked in my sleep.

    The third occasion was while riding snowmobiles at night in
New Hampshire.  My brother was with me again on another machine.  We
were riding on a trail we had been on 100 times before, which went along
the side of a small hill which overlooked another swamp.  The trail was
narrow, so my brother was riding just ahead me.  I saw a red light, fairly
bright, but small shining out of the middle of the swamp.  It looked like
a ball of light.  I stopped my snowmobile and took of my helmet thinking
that my brother's taillight was reflecting off my visor, but it wasn't.
Something was there and I wasn't sticking around to find out what, I
was out of there, that was spooky.  My brother didn't notice it, he was
in the front and keeping his eye on the trail.

    2 or so years before this, my cousin relayed a story about seeing
a green ball of light about the size of a basketball.  She and her boy-
friend at the time, had driven down a out of service dirt road to, I guess,
do what teenagers do, I didn't ask.  The dirt road not too far in was
blocked by large boulders to keep vehicles out of there.  It was far enough
in though to be a good 'parking' spot.  At some point they got into a little
fight and she threatened to walk home and got out of the car.  She immediately
noticed this green basketball sized ball of light sort of hovering around
a small tree just off the road about 30 feet away.  Her boyfriend got right
out of the car as well and saw the same thing.  My cousin was sort of frozen
with fear nad didn't respond when her boyfriend shouted to get back in the
car.  He tossed a few rocks and sticks at it, but it never stopped circling
the tree.  He finally got her back in the car and they drove off, rather
quickly I would imagine.  She said the light was about 15 feet off the
ground and neither one of them heard it make any sound.  She told me about
this not even knowing I was interested in the topic.  This occured about
60 miles outside of Philadelphia.

    Another friend told of a missing time incident when he and a friend
were walking between their houses, normally a 20 minute walk.  This time it
took them 1 hour and 45 minutes, and they never stopped once.

    And finally, yet another friend told me of an encounter in which
she and her sister actually saw a UFO.  They were young, maybe 10 and 12,
and were waiting in the family car waiting for their mother who had gone into
a store.  The UFO was the typical upside down teacup on a saucer shaped thing.
It just flew by without a sound as they watched.  It was just over the
power lines and was only in their view 10 or 15 seconds.  This was just
outside of Boston, MA about 25 years ago.

    I'm sure I'll get bashed by skeptics, but what can I say, I'm
NOT nuts.  I really enjoy reading encounters on this net and encourage
those who only read, like I did, to relay any stories they might have.
If anyone is interested in more details, please e-mail me directly at
[e-mail]  NOT OPERATOR, as I'm really not supposed to post
from this account.

    Lastly, let me apologize for the length of this blabbing, but
I couldn't help myself.  Does anybody have any theories about these balls
of light??  I have read stories of them before.  And to those who have
actually read this, don't let the bashers get you down, there are plenty
of us out here who have legitimate interest.

    Sorry, but I also have interest in information on the infamous
'Men in Black', there's not much info out there on them, at least in
what I've read.



Mark -------->    [e-mail]


disclaimer:    The statements above, of course, do not in any way reflect
        any opinions or views of my company in the remotest way.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u47041
From: [e-mail] (kapoulas george)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 21:49:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Lines: 54
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17289 alt.alien.visitors:2875


 I think you are missing the point; Communion, while admittedly quite
believable and terrifying, was simply a literary device to introduce
the reader to the realm of the unknown; a neccessary ingredient of that
very introduction, is the element of terror. Therefore the author simply
HAD to insist that the story WAS true; once you start reading with the
assumption that it WAS true, then the author can "frighten" you, because
of your very own assumption. If you assume in advance that the book is
just a story, then you will neccessarily fail to be frightened.
 You will say that this has nothing to do with your query about the book
TRANFORMATION; well, it does, as the author USES the first book as an
introduction to the worlds of your OWN mind. The (supposedly true) experience
that Strieber describes is for YOUR benefit, to question YOUR mind-set and
prepare you for the wonderful worlds of creation that he describes in his
second book. Sure, I don't trully believe in the stuff of the second book
either, but I think that HIS creation/explanation of the experiences he
describes is wonderful. That does not mean that I will aspire by his beliefs.
His challenge was to try to "grab" my mind and "suggest" various alternatives.
And at least in my case, he succeded in allowing me to experience lots of
new emotions which related to fear, love, friendliness, union, etc.
 I think, that before we can come to understand the TRUE message that
Strieber wants us to see, we simply HAVE to go through the first experience.
I think that "fear" is a key ingredient to openning your mind to new
insights. It forces you to bring all your beliefs to question, and allows
for new ones to come in. The experiences he describes in his second book,
are going to be understood (I think in my opinion) in the light of the
very tense antithesis that he creates with the first book.
 In essense Striber "streches" you mind to the extreme. When you do that,
wonderful things happen. And THAT's I think his whole point. And besides,
that's what its all about. New experiences. As a scientist myself, I DO NOT
believe any stories about ET's, but I WOULD LIKE to believe the things that
Strieber writes about. There is a big difference. Unless ANYBODY brings me
DIRECT evidence (through the five senses) that ET's exist, I will say
"nice story; have any more?" BUT! the emotional effect that his books
had on me, was very strong and forced me to re-evaluate many of my own
beliefs. To that extent, I think his books were wonderful. He is a superb
writer, he conveys VERY clearly what he wants to convey, and he IS BELIEVABLE.
 And, don't forget, when you read someone's creation, you are reading
ABOUT this person. Strieber's books are a window to Strieber. The value
of somebody's creation lies on how much HE/SHE is able to convey ones
beauty/ugliness so that it could be understood. The only thing I for certain
was able to conclude from Strieber's books, is that Strieber is a wonderful
person. If he, in addition can make a fortune out of it, good for him.
I wish I could do something similar;
 George K, Math Doctoral Candidate
 Math/Stat/CS-UIC
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. there is another third book in the sequence:
"Report on Communion;The facts behind the most controversial story
of our time" by Ed Conroy. I suggest you read that, to get the inside
scoop. (by Avon press as well)
-------------------------------------------------
"Only those who have defeated the Dragon of Wisdom can utter "timeless"
truths". The last two sentences are "timeless" truths.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u47041
From: [e-mail] (kapoulas george)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strieber's books...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Nov 91 23:19:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Lines: 65

=========================================================================
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Thursday, 7 Nov 1991 15:49:30 CST
From: kapoulas george <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
References:  <[e-mail]>

Sorry if the following as reposted. There is a problem with my Mailer...
You write:
>TRANFORMATION was ridiculus....
 I think you are missing the point; Communion, while admittedly quite
believable and terrifying, was simply a literary device to introduce
the reader to the realm of the unknown; a neccessary ingredient of that
very introduction, is the element of terror. Therefore the author simply
HAD to insist that the story WAS true; once you start reading with the
assumption that it WAS true, then the author can "frighten" you, because
of your very own assumption. If you assume in advance that the book is
just a story, then you will neccessarily fail to be frightened.
 You will say that this has nothing to do with your query about the book
TRANFORMATION; well, it does, as the author USES the first book as an
introduction to the worlds of your OWN mind. The (supposedly true) experience
that Strieber describes is for YOUR benefit, to question YOUR mind-set and
prepare you for the wonderful worlds of creation that he describes in his
second book. Sure, I don't trully believe in the stuff of the second book
either, but I think that HIS creation/explanation of the experiences he
describes is wonderful. That does not mean that I will aspire by his beliefs.
His challenge was to try to "grab" my mind and "suggest" various alternatives.
And at least in my case, he succeded in allowing me to experience lots of
new emotions which related to fear, love, friendliness, union, etc.
 I think, that before we can come to understand the TRUE message that
Strieber wants us to see, we simply HAVE to go through the first experience.
I think that "fear" is a key ingredient to openning your mind to new
insights. It forces you to bring all your beliefs to question, and allows
for new ones to come in. The experiences he describes in his second book,
are going to be understood (I think in my opinion) in the light of the
very tense antithesis that he creates with the first book.
 In essense Striber "streches" you mind to the extreme. When you do that,
wonderful things happen. And THAT's I think his whole point. And besides,
that's what its all about. New experiences. As a scientist myself, I DO NOT
believe any stories about ET's, but I WOULD LIKE to believe the things that
Strieber writes about. There is a big difference. Unless ANYBODY brings me
DIRECT evidence (through the five senses) that ET's exist, I will say
"nice story; have any more?" BUT! the emotional effect that his books
had on me, was very strong and forced me to re-evaluate many of my own
beliefs. To that extent, I think his books were wonderful. He is a superb
writer, he conveys VERY clearly what he wants to convey, and he IS BELIEVABLE.
 And, don't forget, when you read someone's creation, you are reading
ABOUT this person. Strieber's books are a window to Strieber. The value
of somebody's creation lies on how much HE/SHE is able to convey ones
beauty/ugliness so that it could be understood. The only thing I for certain
was able to conclude from Strieber's books, is that Strieber is a wonderful
person. If he, in addition can make a fortune out of it, good for him.
I wish I could do something similar;
 George K, Math Doctoral Candidate
 Math/Stat/CS-UIC
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. there is another third book in the sequence:
"Report on Communion;The facts behind the most controversial story
of our time" by Ed Conroy. I suggest you read that, to get the inside
scoop. (by Avon press as well)
-------------------------------------------------
"Only those who have defeated the Dragon of Wisdom can utter "timeless"
truths". The last two sentences are "timeless" truths.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scott the Great
Message-ID: <1991Nov7.154641.18647@anasaz>
Date: 7 Nov 91 15:46:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
]
]Bob Lazar claims he's
]a top scientist, but he has stated that all those nifty saucers out there near
]Las Vegas run on cold fusion.  We all know what happened to that, but nice try
]Bob.  Would somebody please track this guy down and ask him a few physics
]related questions and see if he even knows Newton's laws...
]
]I realize Scott that you may not understand or believe everything that Bob Lazar has said, but does your inability to understand a process make it foolishness.
]Mr. Lazars grasp of an elimentry gravitational drive systems is sound.

I agree.  All the gravitational drive system engineers I know say this guy
really knows his stuff. I hear the collge of Gravitational Drive Mechanics
at CalTech has offered him a chair.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj
From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Nov 91 03:42:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Lines: 91
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2878 alt.paranormal:3588 talk.religion.newage:7616
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra

The Redheaded Goddess asks:

> David:  Are you saying here that Billy Meier claims that Barbara
> Marciniak's work is fraudulent?  Or am I misunderstanding your statement
> and you are saying that Billie Meier is saying that Barbara Marciniak
> is NOT fraudulent?

I have now had time to sit down and discuss with my friend that spent some time
with Billy, her experiences.  Here is my personal opinion of Billy (for what
it's worth):  The visitations during the mid-'70`s are valid, but, because of all
the stuff he has had to endure (it is 13 attempts on his life, not 17 as I said
before, plus many psychic attacks) he has, in my opinion, over time, flipped out.
I gave my friend a list of 26 questions to ask Billy.  Several I already knew
the answers to.  He clearly answered incorrectly to many of those.  I trust what
went on in the 70's, but not what is going on with Billy now.  He is totally
negative about everything.  He dislikes just about everyone.  He and his group
are very unfriendly and extremely difficult to get along with.  Billy says that
*HE* is the only valid contactee with the Pleiadeans, no one else (period).
My friend said it was a waste of time  to visit him (and blames me!).
Never-the-less, we will move forward on translating his Arahat Athersata (in
progress) and Book of Prophesies, both of which were written in the 70's.  We
will give Billy the opportunity to correct all that we do, but I fear that his
present state of mind may not fairly reflect what went on 15 years ago.  He
insists that the German be side-by-side with the English because the way in
which the sentences are constructed in German conveys hidden meanings and sets
up certain vibratory rates that have the ability to alter consciousness even if
not understood.  We, therefore will respect this request.

> What do you personally feel about the work of Barbara Marciniak?

Over the many decades that I have studies the paranormal, I have seen
and heard many.  Her Pleiadeans are, without a doubt, in my opinion, the rudest
group.  If you shuffle your feet too loud, she stops in the middle of what
she is saying and gets a disgusted look on her face (her eyes are closed)
and in a very impolite voice insists that the perpetrator shut up!  It's
almost laughable.  Her group is the most intolerant and unfriendly group
I have seen recently.  They are definitely into control and putting down
anyone that does not abide by their rules.  This was not just one evening
either.  I have spent several evening with her at 3 hour intervals, non-
stop, which she turns into her tape recordings.  By the way, she is
coming out with a book soon.  She also is a regular in the Connecting Link
magazine.  You can write to her group and get on her mailing list and you will
be notified when/where she will be in communication with the group consciousness
she calls the Pleiadeans.  You will also get an order list of over 100 2-tape
sets on just about anything you can imagine, and some you can't imagine.
I suggest that you avail yourself of the opportunity to check her out yourself
and make up your own mind.

> Do you feel she is in communication with Pleiadeans of the future?

Well, I am flattered that you would think that I am qualified to make such a
judgement.  She is in communication with something.  This something identifies
itself as "The Pleiadeans", a group consciousness made up of sentient beings
from the Pleiadean star system.  Future is relative to whenever now may be.  Is
it future Earth?  Is it future Pleiadean?  Actually, present-day Pleiadeans have
the ability to time-travel.  So, perhaps is it present-day Pleiadeans that have
gone into the our future or perhaps our future connections with the Pleaideans
of the past which is, relatively now, or ...  :-)  How could I tell?  The
proof of the pie is in the eating.  If you eat up what she says and it tastes
good, great!  But watch out for mental indigestion.

> And if so, do you feel the material is coming back in its pure form?

All telepathic information is the same as translated information, it needs
to go through the consciousness of the entity doing the telepathy.  The
information is as clear as the mirror reflecting it.  If, on the other hand,
it is in trance, like Kevin Reyerson, then the entire personality, nay, the
entire astral being, vacates the physical body allowing another entity to
take over.  I do not believe that this is what is happening to Barbara.  Her
information is definitely colored by her own consciousness including her
vocal limitations as created by the circumscribed language of the realm
(her English).  Actually Kathy, I think you are more pure than she and,
therefore, would make a clearer mirror for such information.

I have spoken with others that channel the Pleiadeans in one form or the other.
It seems that there is a telepathic computer (yes, they have mastered the
machinations of telepathic technology) that sends out information, like
a telepathic RF bandwidth, to anyone that cares to tune in.  All you have to
do is to be telepathic.  Kathy, I think you may qualify.  Why don't you try
to adjust your empathic feelings towards the vibration of the Pleiadeans
and share with us what YOU get?  And, if you are too shy to share it
openly with this group, then please email me privately.  You could start by
asking them what THEY think of Barbara.

> Kathy

-------------------
  David W. Jones
  [e-mail] OR
  uunet!wrs!davidj
-------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Beam Wounds (Correction to my previous post)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 05:27:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 3

Correction:  that should be (NOT JUDGMENT, NOT ARROGANCE!)

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!samsung!emory!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 05:25:41 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 39

David Jones answered my post about Billy Meier and Barbara
Marciniak.

David:  Right after I read your sentence asking me to tune in or
ask what the Pleiadeans thought of Barbara, I DID receive a thought..
and wrote it down.  I will email it to you privately.  Whether it
is accurate or not I cannot assess.  I have only listened to one
of her tapes so far.  Her style of delivery is quite similar to
someone else I know who channels and has, in fact, 'channeled'
information for me in readings.

I feel that even if a person goes 'into trance' that the material
that comes forth may still be coming from the person's subconscious
(or unconscious or whatever)...flavoring the contents depending upon
his/her own thoughts/feelings/belief systems, etc.

I also am of the opinion that some of the present day New age
concepts/ideas/philosophies are indeed self-serving and encourage
self-centeredness, narcissim, etc.  Frequently they lack the
wisdom of selflessness and compassion (oftentimes full of judgment,
thou shalts and thou shalt nots).  Sort of like a replacement of
religions, but under a different name.

If there was rudeness while Barbara channeled and people shuffling
their feet, etc. (probably due to restlessness) were looked upon
in disdain or disgust, I would certainly say, this is something to
look at closely.  To me, a highly illumined being is one with whom
I wish to be near and with whom I feel radiations of peace, love
and acceptance (NOT ACCEPTANCE, and NOT ARROGANCE!)

Thanks much for the compliment, but my own personal feelings lie
somewhere in the doman that all of us can be instruments if
compassion and love are here in our hearts for our fellow-men.

Kathy

The Truth is a divine inheritance found in the depth of the heart
of every man.
   --Hazrat Inayat Khan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!uflorida!pine.circa.ufl.edu!fnord
From: [e-mail] (Bam-Bam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.religion.newage,alt.thrash,alt.horror,alt.magick
Subject: Fear and Faithless Pony
Keywords: Welcome to CrossPost Hell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 06:29:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University Domain (edu)
Lines: 20
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2881 alt.slack:1633 talk.religion.newage:7620 alt.thrash:905 alt.horror:3684 alt.magick:1785
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

OK.  I need a favor, if you happen to be able to place a quote for me.

is there a known reference for the phrase "the Fear and Faithless Pony"?
If so, where?

As far as I can tell, there is this group of people who are waiting for the
fear and faithless pony, and these people are being, well, 'threatened' in a
way because these alien things want them to think that the fear and faithless
pony is actually here and has commanded them to do some things, but they all
know better than that and have spotted a few alien things already trying
to masquerade as members of the group, each claiming to have seen or gotten
word from the fear and faithless pony.  NOW, while we don't know the motive of
the aliens for doing all of this, I DO know that the people who are waiting for
the fear and faithless pony don't particularly mind the aliens at all, they are
just really confused, and are wondering why the aliens want to keep the true
word of the fear and faithless pony away from them and shrouded in mystery...

Anyway, this is as far as I can tell so far, but the real question remains, and
that is that I need to find a reference for the phrase 'fear and faithless pony'
-- If you think you can help, I'm all ears (or eyes, in this case)..
Path: ns-mx!uunet!gatech!ukma!hri.com!noc.near.net!garbo.ucc.umass.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!hmatisa
From: [e-mail] (Huzrei M. Isa)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 06:35:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 22
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2882 talk.religion.newage:7621 alt.slack:1634

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Reed) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>>
>>            ( Future Shock or Is the Rest of The World Digging In? )
>>
>>             The  asteroid  is just off of Pluto and large  shuttles  are
>>        descending and landing in many locations  on Earth.  These  craft
>
>- Who is the source of this information, and how reputable are they?

I believe the orvotron newsletter got its information from a channeler.
If so, then there is no way to tell how much truth is contained in this
information except to wait and see...

>- Is this just another dis-information thing from the CIA?
>JR
>

I'm pretty sure it is not from the CIA...  ;-)

-=:[ Huzrei ]:=-
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!zeus!s64421
From: [e-mail] (house ron)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <s64421.689515625@zeus>
Date: 7 Nov 91 12:07:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 25
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17309 alt.paranormal:3590 alt.alien.visitors:2883 talk.religion.newage:7622

[e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:

>[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick):

>> Disclaimer: I only took two years of undergrad physics at Caltech, so
>> I'm not an expert. The fact that the Schrodinger's cat thought
>> experiment exists at all is an indication of the fact that scientists
>> are not immune to mysticism.  In my opinion, the proper answer to the
>> question "What is the state of the cat before we open the box?" is
>> simply "I don't know."

>Ah, although we don't know the actual state before we do the
>observation, we DO know the probablity distribution that we will
>observe if we do repeated trials.  That makes the correct answer:

>I don't know, _but_ there is a probablity of 0.5 that it is alive, and
>a probability of 0.5 that it is dead.

Sorry, you clearly don't understand the physics.  See my other post.

--
Regards,

Ron House.   ([e-mail])
(By post: Info Tech, U.C.S.Q. Toowoomba. Australia. 4350)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!zeus!s64421
From: [e-mail] (house ron)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <s64421.689515152@zeus>
Date: 7 Nov 91 11:59:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>really "known"?  Is the cat STILL sorta-alive-sorta-dead until the scientists
>>get there?  I would think so.

>Disclaimer: I only took two years of undergrad physics at Caltech, so I'm not
>an expert. The fact that the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment exists at all
>is an indication of the fact that scientists are not immune to mysticism.  In
>my opinion, the proper answer to the question "What is the state of the cat
>before we open the box?" is simply "I don't know."  As I understand it (if I'm
>wrong, would someone please explain to me how I'm wrong?), the Copenhagen
>interpretation is not an essential part of QM.  It's just one way of
>"interpreting" the equations.  There are other interpretations.  They all use
>the same equations.  Whenever something observable is predicted, they predict
>the same thing.  They differ on what the unobservable states are.  If this is
>correct, then without the mysticism, when asked the state of the cat before the
>box is opened, a physicist would simply answer, "Unobservable."

You are right and wrong.  The Copenhagen interpretation _is_, as you say,
just one possible interpretation, and, in a nutshell, it says, if a
quantity has no possibility of being measured, or to have some effect,
we do not _have_ to incorporate it, or an explanation for it, in our
theories.  So far so good.  As for the cat, noone has ever done (or
ever probably will) do a critical experiment on the state of the cat,
so again, as you say, the right answer is 'don't know'.  But there is a
big rider on this.  The lack of definite values of certain unobservables
is experimentally established.  For example, in a two slit experiment, say
with electrons, you are probably tempted to say "obviously each particular
electron Either went through one slit OR it went through the other.  Not
so.  The experiment would have a different result if it were so.  It
really and truly is that the electron was in a linear superposition
of the states <went through slit A> and <went through slit B>.  Often
thought incomprehensible, or unmeasureable, but it has been verified.

--
Regards,

Ron House.   ([e-mail])
(By post: Info Tech, U.C.S.Q. Toowoomba. Australia. 4350)
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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 06:18:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Waffle login)
Organization: The Matrix
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This is probably the most frightening thing you will ever read...I am
afraid that it may cause considerable consternation and confusion or who
knows what, maybe just some good laughs around the world...I am the
person who jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles in 1987 and
held a toy gun to the head of David Horowitz, the consumer advocate...I
know it made the national and even the International news...I forced him
to read a statement about how the CIA and Aliens had cloned my family and
friends, among various other things...It was dismissed as the possible
rantings of a loonie, by some...Others didn't know what to think, or were
terrified because of the fact that my father worked at the station as
"The Friendly Pharmacist"...For four long years I have kept a lonely
vigil, quietly waiting for changes to take place that would make it
possible for me to tell MY story...If you scare easy, don't read the rest
of this message...

I am here to tell you that my family and friends WERE cloned, and that I
now have PROOF of this...The proof consists of some documents which were
signed last year by a clone of my case manager here in Tallahassee,
FL...I have obtained a copy of it and another document, on both of which
MY signature has been forged to illegally obtain records from mental
hospitals I was unlawfully forced into by the secret goevernment which is
running this country since they assasinated J.F.K in 1963...I have sent
copies of these documents to Michael Corbin, head of Paranet...Anyone,
even without the benefit of expert knowledge of handwriting analysis, can
see that not only is my signature a forgery, but that the two signatures
of my case managers on the document are completely different!!  In time,
I will have the signatures analyzed by experts...

I am currently writing a book about the unbelievable experiences I have
been through over the last 10 years or so...I have been followed around
the entire country by evil people from California, and in the middle of
trying to obtain my AA degree from Tallahassee Community College in 1981,
I was forced into the first of many hospitalizations...My signature has
been forged on the admission forms of mental hospitals, records which
have since vanished...However, I have obtained records from some of those
hospitalizations, which are absolutely terrifying in their
implications...The ENTIRE FILE of a stay at Cedars-Sanai Thalians mental
hospital back in 1984 is a complete forgery!!  While I didn't meet with
or was examined by a SINGLE doctor for two weeks till I was released, the
file is thick with x-ray reports, reports of individual psychiatric
examinations and ongoing therapy, and various other falsifications...I
merely walked the halls for those two weeks, while some of the most
incredible things to happen to ANY human being took place...It is
IMPOSSIBLE to put into one note the things that I have been through, so I
am writing a book called, appropriately enough, "The Invasion of the
Human Race"...I am working with a friend of John Lear, John Valerian, on
it...I am a good writer in my own right, but I lack some of the manual
English skills to put it together myself...

I do not know how to convey all of this in a single note, but I am doing
my best...Please bear with me...I have seen cars appear from thin air,
cars here crash into invisible barriers stretched across the street,
people vanish into thin air, people have been reading my mind directly
for quite some time now, and the entire phone service here, Centel, is
completely taken over...I know how implausible this may sound, but I
assure you that I am (unfortunately) of sound mind...I did what I did as
a means to stop them in their tracks, but I did NOT succeed
completely...Last summer, I was forced illegally once again into the
local mental hospital here by the clone of my mother...This is when I was
able to watch one of the clones sign the documents, which I have now
obtained...It is important that you know this...It is important that
everyone knows it...I have seen powers such as can scarcely be believed,
even by someone as open-minded as myself...

This doesn't JUST involve aliens...It also involves all aspects of
religion, and good and evil...I know what it has sounded like already,
and I know what this too will sound like, but God and his Angels have
been desperately trying to save me personally...Why, and why are these
people trying to destroy my life, I am afraid I cannot say right now...I
have some opinions, but I will leave it at that...I hope that people will
keep an open mind, although on GEnie, many have as much called me crazy
to my face...I don't hold it against anyone to doubt a story such as
this...As someone who KNEW what was going on said to me when this all
started, "If you knew what was going on, you'd wish you didn't know!"...I
don't know what kind of response this will get, but I am willing to
discuss it in a civil manner with anyone of any kind of "Academic" or any
other standing...I tried to see Dr. Hynek when he was alive to enlist his
help, but when I drove to Chicago, I discovered that his group had been
breached, as well as the phone company...

Well, I guess that is enough money spent tonight...I am calling long
distance, so I will have to get back on PC-pursuit again soon...I hope
this hasn't scared you too bad, and if it has, remember that God is on
our side, and beings with such powers as cannot be imagined...You are
welcome to send me mail here...I will answer any and all questions or
comments as soon as possible...God Bless you, and take care, fellow
humans...

               Sincerely,
               Gary Stollman
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 12:44:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Gary, your e-mail address bounces. What's up?
--
Greg

--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meier's Mind
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 14:50:17 GMT
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    Ah, right.
    So now it seems that Billy Meier has lost his mind, due to Psychic
attacks.  Fine.  How many people on the net were actually with Meier when
the Pleiadians visited him in the '70s?  What makes him more mad now than
he was then, when he thought that guys from another planet had chosen
him to be one of the saviours of the earth?

Jason
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 15:09:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
> This is probably the most frightening thing you will ever read...I am
> afraid that it may cause considerable consternation and confusion or who
> knows what, maybe just some good laughs around the world...I am the
> person who jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles in 1987 and
> held a toy gun to the head of David Horowitz, the consumer advocate...I
> know it made the national and even the International news...I forced him
> to read a statement about how the CIA and Aliens had cloned my family and
> friends, among various other things...It was dismissed as the possible

    etc. etc.

    Isn't it scary that loads of replicas of this guy are walking the
streets?  Shouldn't someone tell the aliens that they made a lousy choice
of human to clone.  By the way, is a guy like this allowed to get hold of
REAl weapons?

Jason
[e-mail]

Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 16:38:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s64421.689515152@zeus>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
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In article <s64421.689515152@zeus> [e-mail] (house ron) writes:
                               [...]
>is experimentally established.  For example, in a two slit experiment, say
>with electrons, you are probably tempted to say "obviously each particular
>electron Either went through one slit OR it went through the other.  Not
>so.  The experiment would have a different result if it were so.  It
>really and truly is that the electron was in a linear superposition
>of the states <went through slit A> and <went through slit B>.  Often
>thought incomprehensible, or unmeasureable, but it has been verified.

The reason it is often thought incomprehensible is because we assign mental
representations to subatomic "particles" like the electron that are not
accurate.  The word electron conjures up an image of a neat little basketball
of electric charge orbiting around the grape-cluster of neutrons and protons
that make up the nucleus.  That makes for nice mental imagery but it is false
imagery, and it leads one to have false expectations about what one would
expect to be observed.

The properties of electrons, protons, etc., are different from that of any
"objects" that we can perceive.  Therefore, when we imagine them as "objects",
we find that their properties don't make sense to us.

There is nothing intrinsically mystical about these properties.  They are just
different from anything we are able to observe or interact with directly.

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__
  Warren   v\ *|
             V
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 18:51:51 GMT
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>You are right and wrong.  The Copenhagen interpretation _is_, as you say,
>just one possible interpretation, and, in a nutshell, it says, if a
>quantity has no possibility of being measured, or to have some effect,

I thought is said that observation by a qualified observer collapses the wave
function.
>we do not _have_ to incorporate it, or an explanation for it, in our
>theories.  So far so good.  As for the cat, noone has ever done (or
>ever probably will) do a critical experiment on the state of the cat,
>so again, as you say, the right answer is 'don't know'.  But there is a
>big rider on this.  The lack of definite values of certain unobservables
>is experimentally established.  For example, in a two slit experiment, say
>with electrons, you are probably tempted to say "obviously each particular
>electron Either went through one slit OR it went through the other.

No, I'd also include the possibility that it went through both, as would a
wave.
>Not so. The experiment would have a different result if it were so.

Agreed.  So far, though, we haven't touched on the Copehagen interpretation of
this experiment;  only on what the equations say.

>It really and truly is that the electron was in a linear superposition
>of the states <went through slit A> and <went through slit B>.

I thought is was merely that the amplitude of the wave function was a linear
combinations of the amplitudes you'd get if you only had one slit or the other.

>Often thought incomprehensible, or unmeasureable, but it has been verified.

But you haven't touched on the Copenhagen interpretation-specific claims about
what went on, which are that the electron state was unresolved until a
qualified observer looked at the results.  According to the Copenhagen
interpretation, if I understand it correctly, we could run the experiment up to
the point where the scientist looks at the results the equipment recorded.  If
he looks at the result, the wave function collapses and we get one result.  If
instead, he smashes the equipment, then the electron's state remains
unresolved.  You still haven't cited any experimental evidence that this is the
case.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Moon Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 19:09:45 GMT
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Originator: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in
part:
>
>      About a year ago an engineer that was in a high position of leadership
> made a statement that a lot of people use hen they first start talking to me
> and that is  John your not going to believe what happened to me .  Then I
> usually respond with  Go ahead and try me .   It seemed that this
> engineer had seen an entity that could be seen through at about 1:30 in the
> morning  where the engineer worked.  What was seen was a man with clothes on
> that you could see through.  He had been seen on more than one occasion at two
> different places.  The engineer asked not to divulge any information about the
> situation.  The engineer didn t believe in this sort of thing and feared that
> other people may make fun of the engineer may loose a certain job.
>      The odd thing about it is that the engineer is correct. I ll leave you
> with this saying;  We have met the enemy  and they are us.  P--o.

That's interesting.  About 11 months ago an engineer in an even higher
position of leadership told me that he was responsible for the incident
you refer to.  He was ORDERED not to devulge any details, including
the motivation for such a seemingly pointles prank, at the risk of
loosing a certain job.

What's that?  You don't believe me?

:-)
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From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Casino odds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 04:11:55 GMT
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WHAT IS THIS DOING IN THIS AREA?!?!?!
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From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 04:18:53 GMT
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Abode Computer Services
Lines: 22



So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found
in Texas or New Mexico???

Yesterday, a couple of friends of mine called to asked if I had seen the
news reports on TV about a "weird" organism that had been found and that
scientists were baffled by.

Apparently it was a grey mass- kind of big(?)- that they were jokingly
calling the blob, because they couldn't identify it.

At last count, I heard that they had openied it and were trying to
study it to place it in a "biological group."  They were running into
some obstacles because tit was like something they had never seen.

Later, i logged on to Compuserve, but couldn't find any reference to it
under any news groups.

"Where have you been- asked my friend- it's being talked about EVERYWHERE!"

I haven't heard anything else.... has anyone else out there?!?!
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Broenen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More Strange Happenings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 21:35:34 GMT
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Okay, Mark P, you convinced me to speak up and tell my meager tales...

When I was about 14 years old (around 1978) and living in St. Paul,
Minnesota, there was a particular night during which *many* people saw
unidentified flying objects.  Among these people were my grandparents.
Grams' vision wasn't clear, but Gramp's always had good eyes.  That
night, he saw a couple of glowing disks circling 'over the church.'
(There was a church one block over from their house and the objects
appeared to be above the church, even though they were actually many
miles away.)  Grams could only see a variation in the light in that
part of the sky, so she had to ask specific questions about what Gramps
saw.  He said the circling disks were joined by others, one at a time,
that appeared quickly from out of the sky.  Eventually, there were
five disks, all circling together.  After 45 minutes or so, they disks
departed one at a time, with a few minutes between each departure.

Gramps didn't believe that the disks could have been extraterrestrials.
He thought they might have been spotlights, although it was a clear
night.  They went to bed wondering.

The next morning, there was a front page article in the paper about
all the reported sightings that night.  The papers said that the
objects had been out beyond West St. Paul over rural countryside.
My grandparents had friends out that way and called one of them.
The guy they called was a dairy farmer and he was pretty freaked out.
He said one of the things had landed in his pasture.  He was very
shaken up and was being tight-lipped about the whole thing.
It didn't take long for people to find out, though, since there was
a large 'burnt' spot in his pasture.

My brother and I went out to see it.  It was a perfect circle, about
25 feet in diameter.  The grass was scorched and black, but didn't
quite look like it had been burnt by fire.  The pasture was situated
in a valley.  The circle appeared on the only flat part of the terrain,
(which, incidentally, was not the lowest point.)  There were no obvious
indentations and the grass blades were pointing upwards as usual (in
other words, no swirling pattern or anything.)

The old farmer said that from his house, he had seen one of the glowing
disks disappear into the valley (pasture.)  He grabbed his gun and went
out to investigate.  He saw the craft in its 'landed' position in the
pasture and 'got real scared.'  He wouldn't say anymore.  But it seemed
to me that that wasn't the whole story.

It took about three years for that 'burnt' spot to return to normal.

--

One cloudless Summer afternoon, my brother John and I were hanging
around watching TV.  John got up to go in the kitchen.  He happened
to glance out the sliding glass door and saw something that surprised
him.  He yelled for me to come and see it.  I got there in time to
see a fiery, orange ball descending from the sky.  It was close
enough that we could make out distinct flames that flared backwards
from the falling sphere.  There was no smoke.  The object approached
the ground at about a 30 degree angle from horizontal.  It moved slow
enough that we both got a really good look at it.  Maybe 5 to 7 seconds
worth for me and even longer for John.  It passed beyond a grove of
trees and out of our sight, so we knew it was at least as far away as
those trees (about 1/4 mile.)

We stood there stunned and asked eachother what it was.  We figured
it had to have been a small aircraft that had burst into flames and
crashed.  But there was no explosion or smoke that we could see.  We
thought abour driving in that direction to investigate, but since we
didn't know how far the object was, we figured that would be pretty
futile.  Instead, we decided to wait for the evening news or the
morning newspaper to explain it.  But we never heard anything about
it.

--

There are several other such incidents experienced by myself, family
and friends.  Maybe I'll post some more of them later...

Thanks for reading!
Paul
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From: [e-mail] (The Watcher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 22:43:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] ()
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 9

Gary Stollman, I would like very much if you could give us a little more detail about what you have seen, heard, experienced, dreamed, or had visions of.  Specific events of the strange in nature and your thoughts about the entire scenerio would be greatly appreciated.

I would like to know more about these topics also:
    Tell me anything which you have seen that involves electric blue.
    Tell me why you believe that aliens are cloning these individuals.
    Tell me how you have managed to remain alive if these events are true.
    Tell me how if, "God and his Angels have been desperately trying to save           me," you are not now saved.  Is God in your beliefs so weak that               aliens can overcome him?  What is your beliefs concerning God and               Jesus?

Do keep in mind that I have not made any conclusions concerning your claim and am waiting for more information to form an opinion.
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Speicher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scott the Great
Message-ID: <sjs.689534527@hoodlum>
Date: 7 Nov 91 17:22:07 GMT
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[e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:


>>Bob Lazar claims he's
>>a top scientist, but he has stated that all those nifty saucers out there near
>>Las Vegas run on cold fusion.  We all know what happened to that, but nice try
>>Bob.  Would somebody please track this guy down and ask him a few physics
>>related questions and see if he even knows Newton's laws...

>I realize Scott that you may not understand or believe everything that Bob Lazar has said, but does your inability to understand a process make it foolishness.
>Mr. Lazars grasp of an elimentry gravitational drive systems is sound.  Don't you even understand Einstein's general and specific theories of relativity.  Perhaps you should reconsider your fundimental concepts of physics before entering into any bashings, which serve no one.

>                        The Watcher

Let's see...That is 'Lazar's' not 'Lazars'.
            That is 'elementary' not 'elimentry'.
            That is 'drive system' not 'drive systems'
            That is 'Einstein's ...Special' not 'Einstein's ... specific'.
            That is 'fundamental' not 'fundimental'.

Why don't YOU learn to spell and to think before you criticize
Scott the Great's great work of sarcasm.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd
From: [e-mail] (David M. Schiff)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 00:23:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <s64421.689515152@zeus> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 14
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Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>But you haven't touched on the Copenhagen interpretation-specific claims about
>what went on, which are that the electron state was unresolved until a
>qualified observer looked at the results.  According to the Copenhagen
>interpretation, if I understand it correctly, we could run the experiment up to
>the point where the scientist looks at the results the equipment recorded.  If
>he looks at the result, the wave function collapses and we get one result.  If
>instead, he smashes the equipment, then the electron's state remains
>unresolved.  You still haven't cited any experimental evidence that this is the
>case.

But there may in fact be some evidence that this is not the case.
See the November issue of Scientific American, "Quantum Pinball
A quantum system can be observed without an observer".
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucla-cs!ucla-se!mott!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 01:06:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
>
>
>So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found
>in Texas or New Mexico???
>
>Yesterday, a couple of friends of mine called to asked if I had seen the
>news reports on TV about a "weird" organism that had been found and that
>scientists were baffled by.

I saw part of this story on the local news.  "Organism" is the wrong word,
it looked like some kind of organ.  It looked like an irregular shaped
grey blob of meat about the size of a bowling ball.  The researchers
had cut it in half, and were sort of prodding and stretching it.  You
could see some "chambers" inside it.  It was definitely organic tissue
of some sort.  "Blob" is an accurate description.

>Apparently it was a grey mass- kind of big(?)- that they were jokingly
>calling the blob, because they couldn't identify it.
>
>At last count, I heard that they had openied it and were trying to
>study it to place it in a "biological group."  They were running into
>some obstacles because tit was like something they had never seen.

How about a less hysterical phrase, like "have yet to identify"?
It will probably turn out to be something quite mundane, like
those mysterious blobs of green ice, which turned out to be
airliner toilet flushings.  If it is something mundane, it won't
rate a followup report, and thus will fuel conspiracy theories
about a government cover-up.

DISCLAIMER: Hey, I'm just a lurker in the newsgroup.
            Don't confuse me with these loonies!

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 10:22:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 19
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2899 alt.paranormal:3606 talk.religion.newage:7637

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>
> I have spoken with others that channel the Pleiadeans in one form or the other.
> It seems that there is a telepathic computer (yes, they have mastered the
> machinations of telepathic technology) that sends out information, like
> a telepathic RF bandwidth, to anyone that cares to tune in.  All you have to
> do is to be telepathic.  Kathy, I think you may qualify.  Why don't you try
> to adjust your empathic feelings towards the vibration of the Pleiadeans
> and share with us what YOU get?  And, if you are too shy to share it
> openly with this group, then please email me privately.  You could start by
> asking them what THEY think of Barbara.
>

At last. Proof is possible!!!! All we need is to find two telepaths, have them
receive simultaneously and compare what they get. That should silence the
doubters.


Ian
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!eireann
From: [e-mail] (The Fisher King)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <#csd40=@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: 9 Nov 91 11:17:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes
(in refernce to Gary Stollman's message to us):
>
>    Isn't it scary that loads of replicas of this guy are walking the
>streets?  Shouldn't someone tell the aliens that they made a lousy choice
>of human to clone.  By the way, is a guy like this allowed to get hold of
>REAl weapons?
>
>Jason
>[e-mail]
>

Man, Jason: you've got to have the most open mind in the known world. To
top that off, you're polite and full of respect for your fellow human
beings. You are indeed a model citizen and a shining example of what we
could all be if we would only, say, insert our skulls in our anuses to
a very great depth.

But I don't know why I waste my breath. You're just one of the enemy, bent
making Mr. Stollman's life miserable by making fun of him in a public place.
Jeez, Jason, I hope guys like you can't get ***toys*** very easily. You might
buy a water pistol and accidentally blow your brains out.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: An UFO over Mexico city.
Keywords: when the sun eclipse was.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 04:38:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ing. Baldomero Cardenas Candanosa) writes:
>During the sun eclipse last july, many people use theirs video recorders to
>film that fenomenal, and one person recorded an ufo standing without movement in the sky; I saw the film in a t.v. program and recorded that program.
>The film show a metalic spot in the sky for a few seconds and suddenly it
>disapers.

This past August I attended a slide/video presentation of these UFO's
by Wendelle Stevens. He showed video from at least 5 different people..

Some of the video was very blurry where the vidcam was improperly focused
and other video was extremely clear. The film showed the passing of the
eclipse and the UFO was putting on a show for the crowd that had
gathered to watch the eclipse and ended up getting a little "extra"
benefit.

Contrary to what all the head-stuck-in-the-sand skeptics will tell you,
it *did* happen.

Of course', they're waiting for their god, the amazing Phillip KlASS
to write a new book explaining that what several thousand people saw was
a mass hallucination :^_)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108
From: [e-mail] (Scott the Great)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: An UFO over Mexico city.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 21:38:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 26


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen)
says:
>
>Contrary to what all the head-stuck-in-the-sand skeptics will tell you,
>it *did* happen.

Good!  Now when does Mr. Stevens intend to subject these videos to proper
analysis by multiple objective individuals?  Or is he waiting for what he
calls "the right price"?

>Of course', they're waiting for their god, the amazing Phillip KlASS
>to write a new book explaining that what several thousand people saw was
>a mass hallucination :^_)

Philip Klass knows a lot about aircraft and the workings of the Air Force.
Somehow I think this is a little out of his area.  When Mr. Stevens submits
the tapes undoctored for proper analysis, i'll take him seriously.  Until then,
they might as well be made by Lucasfilm.  Think Gulf Breeze...  A lot of people
saw UFO's there too...

So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in
Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found
in Utah?  Inquiring minds want to know...

Scott
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 22:39:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17382 talk.religion.newage:7638 alt.atheism:17551 alt.alien.visitors:2903

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>
>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>religion is the study of everything else.
>>
>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
>art (the study of everything else).

Oh, please.  I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks
that fanatically religious people have caused.  Both science and religion
are searches for truth.  Science searches for what is true about this physical
universe.  Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
one.  They really shouldn't interfere with each other.  And if the religious
fanatics insist that something in this universe MUST be such-and-such a way,
they should just let the scientists discover it for themselves.  And if the
scientists discover that the religious fanatics are wrong, the fanatics should
shut up.

>>--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
>>Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
>>devastatingly true, except the bits #
>>that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 23:53:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17386 talk.religion.newage:7639 alt.atheism:17555 alt.alien.visitors:2904
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von
Laudermann) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
>>art (the study of everything else).
>
>Oh, please.  I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks
>that fanatically religious people have caused.  Both science and religion
>are searches for truth.  Science searches for what is true about this physical
>universe.  Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
>one.  They really shouldn't interfere with each other.  And if the religious
>fanatics insist that something in this universe MUST be such-and-such a way,
>they should just let the scientists discover it for themselves.  And if the
>scientists discover that the religious fanatics are wrong, the fanatics should
>shut up.

I think the problem here is that Eric is talking about what he thinks religion
SHOULD BE, while Alex is talking about what religion IS, HAS BEEN, and is
likely to remain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <1991Nov8.234443.22858@anasaz>
Date: 8 Nov 91 23:44:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

-HEY YOU ALL OUT THERE
-LISTEN UP I GOT SOME SERIOUS
-QUESTIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR GOOD SERIOUS ANSWERS.

-WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NASA?
 I'm disgusted with them for not publishing their moon rocket technology
 so we could all take advantage of it.
-WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI(E.S.P)
 Don't you know?
-DO YOU HAVE PSI ABLITY
 Don't you know?
-HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?
 With the Pleiadians?
-THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR ANYBODY IN ANY NEWSGROUP. WE ARE SERIOUS
-ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND STARTING A NEW COLONY THERE
-WE HAVE ONE POSSIBLE ENGINE DESIGN BUT WE NEED THE HELP OF OTHERS
 You need to get in touch with Barbara Marciniak.  She's in touch with the
 Pleiadians and could probably get the to give you a lift the next time
 they swing by.  There's also Robert Lazar in Las Vegas.  He's an expert
 in gravitaional propulsion systems and could probably help you out with
 your design. He only needs some fuel to make it work.  Do you have any
 element 115?  Maybe Barbara can get you some from the Pleiadians.
-WHO FEEL AS WE DO. WE IS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT LIFE ON EARTH IS JUST
-GETTING TO RIDICULOUS AND FEELTHIS,
I too have sensed that life here is getting ridiculous.  It's about time
we took a serious look at building a colony on the moon.  We're going to
miss you guys. Do you have room for Ted Kennedy?
-ARE YOU AS DISGUSTED WITH NASA AS WE ARE? HELP US TO THE MOON
-i am not yelling i am announcing i know the rules of vax protocol

-signed sincerely
-Lady Rhavyn.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb
From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Zen Intergalactic Ninja
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 12:26:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Eric Herrera) writes:
>
> I saw a piece in this morning's San Jose Mercury News about a new
> product/character/phenomenon to be marketed by the same folks who
> brought us Teen-Age Ninja Turtles.  It's to be called "Zen
> Intergalactic Ninja."  The article says that he's here to "clean up
> the Earth."  Expect a merchandising and media blitz similar to
> Michaelangelo, Rafael, Donatello and Leonardo.  In the illustration,
> "Z.I.N." is brandishing some sort of weapon (staff- or sword-like),
> and he looks like your classic "grey", except with much bigger
> muscles.  Any comments?

Well, I hope this Zin-hombre has a better sense of humor than yer
run-of-the-mill Reticulan.

Cowabunga, dudes and dude-ettes!
Craig

-- "It's funny how the colours    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  of the like real world only         Internet: [e-mail] --
--  seem really real when you         Austin: [e-mail] --
--  viddy them on the screen."                      VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!jwt!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 06:28:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Waffle login)
Organization: The Matrix
Lines: 4

Greg,
     I don't KNOW for certain, but I have some assumptions about it!!

     Gary
Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!fauern!unido!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!gisle
From: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 11:58:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Gisle Hannemyr)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Lines: 60
Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 7 Nov 91 02: 18:03 GMT
Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> HEY YOU ALL OUT THERE
> LISTEN UP I GOT SOME SERIOUS
> QUESTIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR GOOD SERIOUS ANSWERS.

> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NASA?
I am disgusted with them for not considering my PSI(E.S.P) propulsion
system, which I at numerous occasions have demonstrated effective on
a smaller scale, using an ordinary (birthday party type) balloon.
> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI(E.S.P)
I think PSI is the correct scientific way to determine pressure.
I can prove this because if I express the Extra Strong Pressure
(E.S.P) required to make a balloon fizz all the way to the Moon
in metric units, and divide that with the base side of the Great
Pyramid, it doesn't make any sense at all.
> DO YOU HAVE PSI ABLITY
No, but the local gas station has a nice gauge they let me use
whenever I wonder how much air there is any of my ballons.
> HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?
I would inflate a really big balloon untill the pressure reached
E.S.P, and then sit on the top of it and let a trusted associate
let go of the opening.  My theory is that the gravity field in
some way is bound closest to air molecules (that also explains why
the Moon doesn't fall down -- because there is no air on it!),
and that the air fizzing out of the balloon, therefore takes the
most of the gravity field associated with the space-time occupied
by the ballon with it -- thereby making the balloon exist a brief
time i zero-G.  You can verify this for yourself by inflating a small
balloon and then letting go:  See how the balloon fizzes around
the room in an appearent zero-G field!
> THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR ANYBODY IN ANY NEWSGROUP. WE ARE SERIOUS
> ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND STARTING A NEW COLONY THERE
> WE HAVE ONE POSSIBLE ENGINE DESIGN BUT WE NEED THE HELP OF OTHERS
> WHO FEEL AS WE DO. WE IS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT LIFE ON EARTH IS JUST
> GETTING TO RIDICULOUS AND FEELTHIS,

> ARE YOU AS DISGUSTED WITH NASA AS WE ARE? HELP US TO THE MOON
I am disgusted with NASA and willing to help!  Just send me mail
for full price list for various merchandise, including my sample
"zero-G" balloon kit, a booklet with detailed instruction on how
to build _your_very_own PSI(E.S.P) propulsion system, a video,
where one of my kids demonstrate the propulsion system at her
birthday party, and more.
> i am not yelling i am announcing i know the rules of vax protocol
> signed sincerely
> Lady Rhavyn.
> kp
I understand that you are not yelling, Lady Rhavyn.
But perhaps you are hinting that you are a "BIFF"?

--
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my
            employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary.

- gisle hannemyr  (Norwegian Computing Center)
  EAN:   C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format)
         [e-mail]                      (RFC-822  format)
  Inet:  [e-mail]
  UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle
------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 12:54:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <#csd40=@lynx.unm.edu>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29

In article <#csd40=@lynx.unm.edu>, [e-mail] (The Fisher King) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes
> (in refernce to Gary Stollman's message to us):
>>
>>    Isn't it scary that loads of replicas of this guy are walking the
>>streets?  Shouldn't someone tell the aliens that they made a lousy choice
>>of human to clone.  By the way, is a guy like this allowed to get hold of
>>REAl weapons?
>>
>>Jason
>>[e-mail]
>>
>
> Man, Jason: you've got to have the most open mind in the known world. To
> top that off, you're polite and full of respect for your fellow human
> beings. You are indeed a model citizen and a shining example of what we
> could all be if we would only, say, insert our skulls in our anuses to
> a very great depth.
>
> But I don't know why I waste my breath. You're just one of the enemy, bent
> making Mr. Stollman's life miserable by making fun of him in a public place.
> Jeez, Jason, I hope guys like you can't get ***toys*** very easily. You might
> buy a water pistol and accidentally blow your brains out.

    Hmmm.  I just don't believe that every lunatic with weird fantasies
should be given airtime.  Do you?

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 13:49:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 28
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 8 Nov 91 10:22:34 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
> >
> > I have spoken with others that channel the Pleiadeans in one form or the other.
> > It seems that there is a telepathic computer (yes, they have mastered the
> > machinations of telepathic technology) that sends out information, like
> > a telepathic RF bandwidth, to anyone that cares to tune in.  All you have to
> > do is to be telepathic.  Kathy, I think you may qualify.  Why don't you try
> > to adjust your empathic feelings towards the vibration of the Pleiadeans
> > and share with us what YOU get?  And, if you are too shy to share it
> > openly with this group, then please email me privately.  You could start by
> > asking them what THEY think of Barbara.
> >
>
> At last. Proof is possible!!!! All we need is to find two telepaths, have them
> receive simultaneously and compare what they get. That should silence the
> doubters.
>

    You're right.  The perfect experiment.  I suggested this some time ago but
I was informed that since the truth is (much to my surprise) subjective, each
telepath will recieve a different version of the same message.  In fact, their
information may be completely contradictory although both apparently are
equally true.  This is because telepathy is a "more refined" form of
communication.  You get so close to being able to prove something and it turns
out that the scientific method just doesn't work for anything that makes
headlines in the Weekly World News.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Beam Wounds
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 14:26:58 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 45

Kellan Hatch writes (seemingly rather sarcastically?):
"..since I was informed truth is (much to my surprise) subjective.."

Kellan:  Truth can be relative and/or absolute.  Let me give you
an example:  If I walk in front of a truck outside my home, the
truth is when hit and killed I will lose my life.  But at the
absolute level, I will not lose my life.

We are not all on the same wavelength, and not all souls are equally
refined.  Some here on this planet are spiritually, babies, whereas
others may be spiritual adepts.  If you read some of the literature
and material that is out, there is clear indication of this.  There
are many grades and levels of evolution and consciousness.

To say/think/feel that every one would receive the "same" telepathic
message, or at least two telepaths would, is totally absurd.  In my
own experience with psychics, people who meditate, people who have
made spiritual openings, etc. I have found a WIDE variance.  I
suspect this is due to the fact that purification is not always done
on the same intensity level for every human being.

I recommend you read Friday Waterhouse's booklet: "Why Me?"  It is
a real eye opener.  It costs $4 ($1.50 also for postage and is
available from:  Sufi Islamia/Prophecy Publications, 65 Norwich St.,
San Francisco, CA 94110.

Also, other people have written for that address of The Gnostic
Christian (they will send you a subscription free).  You might
check that out.  Here is their address:  St. George Press, RR!,
RR1, Box 75, Geneva, NE 68361.

I also suggest you check out the writings of Blavatsky, Alice
Bailey, and Leadbeater for starters, if you are seriously interested
at all in ascertaining the "truth" regarding varying levels of
evolution/consciousness.  A 1st grader cannot comprehend the same
material a college student can.

Kathy

"Consciousness has NEVER been a basic self.  However, it is possible
for the basic self to make a quantum leap by becoming a High Self
by neatralizing its own negatives and cooperating with the conscious
self in fulfilling the soul's blueprint."
   --Frida Waterhouse, "Why Me?" (copoyright 1974, WAY BEFORE the
     t.v. series QUANTUM LEAP!!)
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Evolution, fish and reptiles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 16:37:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 26
Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3614 alt.alien.visitors:2912 sci.skeptic:17405 talk.religion.newage:7641

> I don't know anything about the Sea grass, but I heard something different
>about the moths in G.B. that makes more sense to me.  For a species of moth
>to change from white to black that quickly would be pretty tough.  Those
>things take more time.  What I heard happened is that all the pollution in
>the air made the white moths stand out so that they were wiped out by the
>birds.  The dark moths, which existed at the same time as the white moths,
>were naturally hidden.  Thus it was a matter of simple natural selection,
>and not genetic evolution.  I wouldn't call the extermination of a species
>evolution.
>
>Tim Eckert
>


Point well taken.  We discussed this example in an anthropology class
I took.  I don't think they have enough information about this
case to say whether or not the black moths had been previously hidden,
or were just a mutation that popped up and became successful.  I think
they are definitely sure that the black and white moths are the same
species, which implies they can breed together.  The species isn't
extinct - it is just that the white moths seem to be gone (all gone?)

The theory is that evolution works by the process of natural selection,
so I interpret this example as an example of evolution.

Tracy W. Carver
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 16:46:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
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    You are joking, all of you, right? People from Venus? Venus as
a place of "Temples of Love"? This isn't about alien visitors, this is
fuzzy-headed New Age crystalbabble.

    LOVE? If Venus and its theoretical inhabitants represented anything
to US, it would be HELL. The surface temperature of Venus is hot enough
to melt lead, the pressure of its atmosphere would squash humans like
bugs, and it is filled with gaseous sulphuric acid. Nothing that we
could call LIFE could exist there at all. Ever. Not until we terraform
the bejesus out of it.
    Oh, you might make a faint case that some form of energy creatures
could live there, but in that case I would doubt (first) that such
energy creatures could form in an environment that would be basically
too energy POOR to create them, and second that such beings would be
either interested in us, or even capable of making meaningful contact
with human beings (let alone manifesting as blonde housewives.).

    I have seen a UFO myself. What I saw maneuvered in such a way that
I do not believe that anything built by man up to the present time could
duplicate those maneuvers. However, while I would like to think it was an
alien spaceship, I also consider other possibilities... and I'd like to
think that a forum calling itself alt.alien-visitors could at least limit
itself to discussions that MAKE SENSE.


                Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Note to John P. Gibbons and also letter to me by M.N.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 16:46:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 33

John:
Thanks for your private email.  My attempt to answer your email
failed and mail bounced back.  Can you supply an alternate
email?

Regarding judgmental private email from a person with the initials
M.N.: (I won't say your name):  I answered your email, also.  If
you do not get it, pls. know it is the fault of the machines and
not of my own doing.

But just in case you don't get it, let me post again partial
contents of what I sent you:

"Why do the works of a Mystic of a Sage so often arouse such
severe antagonism?  Take, for instance, poems like the "leaves of Grass"
by Walt Whitman.  They have aroused storms of criticism as well as
enthusiastic admiration.  Yet, on the ohter hand, readers of all
sorts generally are not troubled by the weird meanderings of the
written words of an insane mind.  This reveals the fact that it is
not simply the unconventionality of the form that stirs the antagonism.
Now these storms of criticism are really tributes.  They indicate, at
least, an unconscious recognition of Power in the words of the
Mystic or the Sage."
   --Franklin Merrell Wolff, "Pathways Through To Space".

--

For those who have written private email to me encouraging me to
continue posting, or saying they find my posts interesting, etc.
I say: thank you.  For those who enjoy flaming me privately or publicly,
I say:  Look within.  Man's greatest battle is always with himself.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 16:54:39 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 28

Ryk E. Spoor (Sea Wasp) writes about people from Venus, and
no life could exist there, etc. etc.

Sea Wasp:  Perhaps it is time you OPENED your mind.  Perhaps
no one in a PHYSICAL HUMAN EMBODIMENT could not survive the
atmosphere on Venus, but this does not mean that other LIFE FORMS
COULD!!  Are you so limited in thinking that the physical body
as you now see that you are in IS THE ONLY FORM OF LIFE on
all the billions of planets/galaxies/universes IN EXISTENCE?

You know, I once heard someone say this:  the mind is like a
parachute.  If you don't open it, it won't work.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

Yes, I think some of us here WERE from Venus, and also a host of
other planets and planetary life forms.  Just because I happen to
now occupy the body of a female human body certainly does not mean
that is the ONLY life form my consciousness ever knew or inhabited.

In case you did not know it:  life can be in form or formless.  But
oh that ego--how it LOOOOOOOVES to cling to crystallized beliefs..
it is so afraid it might have to die or take second seat to Higher
Consciousness manifestation...but that is what spiritual birth is
all about.  Sorry Ryk, but there is much more to life than just
what your naked eye happens to see.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 17:00:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>WHAT DO YOU THINK OF N.A.S.A?\

    I think NASA needs a lot more money, an overhaul in the administration
and coordination departments, and should put Gary Hudson on its payroll.

>WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE HUMAN RACE?

    It's the only intelligent lifeform *I* know of for sure. We have our
flaws, but overall we aren't doing as badly as we might. Hell, we've had
the capacity to wipe ourselves out for years and have managed to avoid it.
I have a fair amount of hope that we might actually succeed in surviving
our flaws.

>WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI (E.S.P)?

    Possible. I've seen some evidence for, but the sheer weight of
negative results is a pretty damning statement against its existence.
You'd think that ONE reliable telepath/telekinetic (ESPECIALLY telekinetic)
would have come forward and taken Randi's money by now. I know that if
*I* had reliable psychic powers I'd LOVE to watch his face as I levitated
a paperclip off his hand...

>HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?

    By rocket ship. What is this, a trick question? I'd like to have
a couple tons of money so I could finance Hudson's _Phoenix_ project
as described in _Fallen Angels_. Then I might actually be able to get
to the moon.
    Of course, once in orbit one might be able to use better ways to
get the rest of the way to the Moon, perhaps solar sails or ion rockets.

>O.K. FIVE, DO YOU POSESS PSI(E.S.P)

    I have had some things happen to/around me that have made me
wonder on occasion, but aside from one trick with dice (which required
another friend of mine to work) these incidents were never replicable.
    So I'd have to say probably not.


                Sea Wasp
                  /^\
                  ;;;
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 17:22:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Sea Wasp:  Perhaps it is time you OPENED your mind.  Perhaps
>no one in a PHYSICAL HUMAN EMBODIMENT could not survive the
>atmosphere on Venus, but this does not mean that other LIFE FORMS
>COULD!!  Are you so limited in thinking that the physical body
>as you now see that you are in IS THE ONLY FORM OF LIFE on
>all the billions of planets/galaxies/universes IN EXISTENCE?

    First, I'm going to assume that you meant, "..that does not mean
that other life forms COULDN'T" -- i.e., that you are saying that there
are other forms of life that might be able to live there.

    My prior post covered that possibility as well. I think you
can make a case to say that some form of energy creature, or maybe
something based on wildly different chemical reactions, could live
there. While I don't believe such things exist, I won't argue that
they CAN'T.
    However, my second point still applies. Such creatures, if they
exist, will be so wildly different from us that I doubt seriously that
they would have either interest in us, or even an ability to contact us.
They most CERTAINLY would not be able to masquerade (even assuming that
they could somehow "transfer consciousness" into a human body) as human
effectively, since they would have no idea whatsoever of how to behave.

    Hell, even REAL human beings have trouble interacting with
society. You think an ALIEN from a world that utterly hostile is going
to have the FAINTEST idea of what to do here? You can't even brief a
human being well enough to let him pass as a native member of a culture
that he wasn't raised in, 90% of the time... and these are still members
of his own species, on his own planet, evolved from the same roots.
    These Venusians you're talking about would have LESS in common
with us than we do with trees, a hell of a lot less than we have in common
with Dolphins, and even with the dolphins we STILL can't tell for sure
if THEY are intelligent or not, let alone how to CONTACT them.

    Please. Open-mindedness is one thing, but temper it with LOGIC.


                Sea Wasp

"Between the Daylight of what IS... and the Darkness of what CANNOT BE...
 Lies the Twilight... of POSSIBILITY." -- Admiral Twilight
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sjcupps
From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pleiadeans
Summary: Who are the Pleiadeans?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 02:49:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 5


Who are the Pleiadeans????????? I would greatly appreciate anything emailed to
me on this subject.  Thanks in advance.
Sara
email at  [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venu Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 17:50:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 40

Ryk E. Spoor (Sea Wasp) answered my post saying the Venusians
would not have interest in us, etc.

I disagree with you and also feel you did not HEAR what I said.
Consciousness can manifest in MANY forms.  There could also be
parallel worlds to whatever lifeforms exist on the planet Venus
(and my hunch is, is that there are myriads of lifeforms on
EVERY planet).  The human being is only one form.

I did not understand what you meant about them "masquerading".
I am talking here from the standpoint of CONSCIOUSNESS.  I could
have, at some other point in time or beingness, manifested on the
planet Venus, have that memory in my own soul akashic memory, and
tap into it.  Simply because I am in a human body does not negate
the possibility that I was at one time in another body of another
form on another planet.

As far as your comment saying a Venusian wouldn't be interested
in us, as we are not interested in trees: I disagree with you again.
I feel trees are holy beings (just check out how they are regarded
in Japan...where they make big shrines of huge old trees, while
they just dispose of human bodies).  Again, we are speaking
CONSCIOUSNESS here, and the various many levels of degrees of it.

Yes, I did in fact mean that the life forms could NOT exist (I
inadvertently typed it wrong in my post).  We, in the human body
form, are only just one type of life form.  We are not the only
life form as is readily seen by the many types of animal bodies
on this planet (we are in a human animal body).

Consciousness may have differing experiences of differing life
forms.  When the shell of the ego is broken, the understanding
can then come forth to what I am talking about.  But then, again,
I know you will not hear what I am saying until you are ready to
hear it, and your ears (at this level) are open to it.

Is there someone out there who 'hears' what I am saying and could
give additional insight?

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 18:07:23 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 29

I would heartily recommend you to read: "Joy's Way, A Map
for the Transformation Journey" by W. Brugh Joy, M.D.
This is a story of an M.D. who began to experience different
fields/levels of consciousness.  If you are interested in
focussing in on material about expanded awareness, this is
a most excellent book.

Kathy

"As I have recognizedonly in the last year, the mere presence of
a being who enjoys periods of natural awareness can be very
important in this process.  In fact, I am now certain that
absolutely no diaglogue or action is necessaryfor individuals to
beheightened into expanded awareness when they are in the presence
of such a teacher.  In a way unconscious to the seeker's awareness,
the seeker's energy field is freed from its old patters and
reshapes itself on the energy field of the teacher.  The the
nonordinary simply begins to be experienced.  The words, the
teaching sessions, the exercises are only scaffoldings that
hold the individual's attention long enough for this process of
induction to occur.  The teacher, as long as he or she is operating
in expanded awareness, could talk about anything at all, and
still achieve the same results.

The teacher's voice vibration can augment the experience, but, to
repeat, it is not the words or their content that causethe change.
It is the sound."

 --W. Brugh Joy, M.D.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty
From: [e-mail] (Dusty Garza)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 08:08:56 GMT
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17414 alt.alien.visitors:2921



Whitley Streiber and I went to the same high School in San Antonio, Texas-
actually an all-boys school (military Academy) Central Catholic College
Prep.
We had the same creative writing teacher- Bro. MArtens McMurtrey- a great
writer himself.
Well, one day I was talking to Bro. Mac about Whitley (since we did not go
to the school at the same time) and he told me things that really opened
my eyes about a few things.

1) Whitley had an underground news letter at Central that dealt with
   the paranormal and black magic.  He ran and wrote this with his
   best friend ( I don't remember his name right now, but he co-wrote
   "War Day" with Streiber- a successful novel in mid 80's).

2)  Whitley was the school "expert" on the paranormal and black magic-
and many times his stories dealt with these topics.

These things (that came from a Catholic Brother- step under a priest)
were mind boggling to me since- once on Oprah Winfrey's show I had heard
Mr. Streiber say that when he started doing research for his novel
"Cat Magic" he had expected to find that all witches were bad and eveil.
" I was expecting to write a horror book- like wolfen or something," he
said.

As you may or may not know "Cat Magic" was very successful and played a
key role in the promotion of the new age movement.

Mr. Streiber is an excellent FICTION writer, but since I heard these things
I have taken all of his NON FICTION writings with a grain of salt.


--Dusty
in L.A>

P.S.  I am not making this up, and do not wish to slander Mr. Streiber.
      I aam just hoping to shed light on this intriguing subject.
      I am also willing to answer any questions  you may have.
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venu Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 19:09:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk E. Spoor (Sea Wasp) answered my post saying the Venusians
>would not have interest in us, etc.
>I disagree with you and also feel you did not HEAR what I said.
>Consciousness can manifest in MANY forms.  There could also be

    On the contrary, I heard you perfectly well. Perhaps you
didn't understand ME.
    By "consciousness" I presume you mean the mind, or soul, or what
have you, the non-material part of a thinking being.
    From the rest of your prior post, I must presume that you are
perhaps speaking of reincarnation. Okay, fine. If Reincarnation exists,
then yes, you could conceivably have an alien who lives now in a
human body and who, by virtue of being born here, is able to make out
well as a human.

    But you're REALLY stretching it. In order for us to accept THAT
proposition, we have to accept not just alien beings, but alien beings
whose consciousness wanders interplanetary or even interstellar distances
just to be reincarnated here on earth.

    This isn't talking about "alien visitors", Kathy. You are
discussing religion, speaking of migrating consciousnesses... Alien
Visitors and UFOs are, though a "paranormal" subject, at least one
which appears to be approachable by normal scientific means. If we
have alien visitors, it's much more likely that they're flying around
in ships of real matter, wearing real bodies, and acting like real
living beings. Keep the religion angle down.

                Sea Wasp
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 19:16:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>I would heartily recommend you to read: "Joy's Way, A Map
>for the Transformation Journey" by W. Brugh Joy, M.D.
    [...]
>important in this process.  In fact, I am now certain that
>absolutely no diaglogue or action is necessaryfor individuals to
>beheightened into expanded awareness when they are in the presence
>of such a teacher.  In a way unconscious to the seeker's awareness,
    [lots of jargon like "awareness" "energy-field", etc.,
deleted for brevity]

    When W. Brugh Joy can instruct someone in a triple-bypass
operation by just the presence of his personality, while speaking
about a poker game or something, then I'll believe his fuzzy psychobabble.
Until then, all that stuff he is saying in your lengthy quote is
utterly meaningless. Can you MEASURE what he's saying? Can it be
tested? Accuracy, reproducibility, analysis, this is science. Anything
that can't meet those criteria is at best a guess, or an opinion, or
at worst is unreason.

                Sea Wasp
                  /^\
                  ;;;

"Light Unto Shadows."
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From: [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 03:08:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 11

Walter Pullen writes...
>Note that our ordinary physical motions can't hurt the
>astral objects - waving your hands around the TV set won't hurt the
>image. They are both different worlds.

I don't know about that.  I always get better reception when I put my hands
near the TV.  Radio, too.

Just a small note.

Sara
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From: [e-mail] (Richard N Iachetta)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: uscsus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 04:46:28 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 31

Hi Earthlings,

To my knowledge, I am the only product of an inter-galactic mixed marriage.
To be specific, my mother is a human (the Earth variety) and my father is
from a planet orbiting a star which is yet undiscovered to earthlings.
It is not visible from here due do a dense amount of dark matter and
intergalactic dust revolving around one of the universes largest black
holes.  I am posting to clear up a few points and to answer those
non-believers.

First of all, the 'death beam' is real.  My father had a few of them until
the government killed him and destroyed all the death beams except one;
he gave me one for my 13th birthday which I have kept hidden.  It does work,
but being half human, my accuracy is not keen.  For example, I may think
of an object but hit something near by, or I may be angry at an
individual but have no intension of killing him, but the death beam
may do it anyway.  I don't think it is a faulty death beam; the problem
is that I am only half alien.

Channelers, Please Keep It Down!  I can't get any peace anymore with all
of you making so much racket.  Thanks to you I spent 4 years in a mental
institution.  I tried to tell them that the voices I was hearing were
humans channeling to me and I could hear them because I was an part alien,
but, they just wouldn't believe me.  Damn skeptics, or maybe they are
part of the whole conspiracy with the government secret agencies.
I did notice some men in black suits talking with my doctors every
now and then.

Finally, no I don't like Reeses Pieces.

Uscsus
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 20:38:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 30

Ryk Sporr (Sea Wasp) writes back about "In order for us to
accept THAT proposition...etc?

Ryk:  First, let's get one thing straing.  I am not interested
in GETTING you to...ANYTHING.  You are responsible for your
own thought, perceptions, and yes, even mis-perceptions.

What I am talking about is NOT religion, but if you choose to think
of it in this manner, that is your right.

Since you are interested in "measuring" things scientifically,
then you must go to another scientist.  It is my thought/opinion/
feeling/intuition that you are very "head" (logic/intellectual)
oriented and that is your path.  But it is not mine.  And I have
no necessity to convince you otherwise.

Whether one discusses consciousness in terms of energy manifesting
as an "alien from outer space" or a being on Venus, or an actual
spacecraft (UFO)...is simply food for thought, ideas being expresed,
or things believed in (depending on WHO believes what).  In my case
I do feel that "aliens" are out there (in UFOs) and also IN you.

Since you are scientifically minded and interested in "measuring things",
maybe you should check out the newsgroup sci.skeptics.  These people
are indeed very busy telling people they are crazy or nuts for
various reasons.

Science knows so little.  And certainly, it is not a God that I worship.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 20:51:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 37

Sea Wasp writes: "When Brugh Joy, M.D. can instruct someone
in a triple by-pass operation by just the present of his
personality, while speaking about a poker game or
something, then I'll believe his fuzzy psychobabble."

Sea Wasp:  This isn't about what YOU believe.  Each person
has his own experiences.  However, if one is getting a triple
bypass, he would be very lucky to have a surgeon who has made
a soul opening...his chances, I would say, of surviving the
operation and healing are probably greatly greater.

I don't think Brugh Joy is guilty of "psychobabbling".  If anything,
I would say he has expanded his field of awareness.  He knows
and realizes that he is not his body (or only his body) through
breakthroughs in consciousness.  This was apparent to me when I read
his book many years ago, and it was the book that came to mind to
recommend.

If you do not wish to believe Brugh Joy that is your option.  We
all have the choice to stay closed.  I, for one, choose to open.

I have seen it over and over by people who are closed and/or scientifically
minded:  they want you to "prove" everything to them.  I am not
interested in playing this game with you.  You will have to find your
own proof.  And when you start breaking your egoic boundaries, get
ready to grab on to something, that is, if you can find anything to
grab on to.  As Richard Moss, M.D. (author of The Black Butterfly)
so aptly put it:  it is like standing in a room when all the walls
go down.

You want physical manifestation proof in the material realm.  Many
of the telepathic contacts with higher beings, aliens, does not
fit the rules that you understand with physical things.  When you
open to this understanding/realization, you will realize how limited
much of scientific thinking really is.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 22:15:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 55

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>I have seen it over and over by people who are closed and/or scientifically
>minded:  they want you to "prove" everything to them.  I am not
>interested in playing this game with you.  You will have to find your

    Ah. So it's basically the "I don't care if you believe me, this
is the way it is" approach. Fine, I've done that one myself on occasion.
But it still doesn't sound like anything that belongs on something
about alien visitors.

>own proof.  And when you start breaking your egoic boundaries, get
>ready to grab on to something, that is, if you can find anything to
>grab on to.  As Richard Moss, M.D. (author of The Black Butterfly)
>so aptly put it:  it is like standing in a room when all the walls
>go down.

    What is an "egoic boundary?" Can you percieve it? Measure it?
Or is the only way you can notice one by whether or not someone agrees with
this perception that you have of some mystical "expanded consciousness"?
    I HAVE grabbed on to something. The REAL WORLD. The "gods" of
this world never helped me (though I tried prayer); the magicians of
this world never helped me (though I tried ritual and belief); but
the science of this world saved my life many times over.

>You want physical manifestation proof in the material realm.  Many
>of the telepathic contacts with higher beings, aliens, does not
>fit the rules that you understand with physical things.  When you
>open to this understanding/realization, you will realize how limited
>much of scientific thinking really is.

    The above paragraph assumes the existence of telepathic contacts.
If telepathy exists, the proof of it is simple. Refusal to prove it is
evidence that the claimant isn't quite so sure of its existence as
he/she/it claims to be.

    Science may not know EVERYTHING yet, but it progresses. And it
can advance itself in a systematic and ordered way, and deal with any
worldview changes in a generally sensible fashion. In the end, it HAS
no limits except one: REALITY. Where reality leaves off, science cannot
follow. But then again, when reality leaves off, one no longer has
need of anything save one's mind.

    Sci.skeptic is for skeptics who want to talk about skepticism.
I am interested in research on UFOs and possible alien contacts and
so on, but I'm interested in hearing about ones that are not something
Shirley Maclaine might have designed.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

"Too often, people confuse simple credulity with having an open mind.
 a mind can be open for ideas and still have a screen door to catch the
 incoming bugs." -- Jason Wood
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!bcm!rice!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Don Showen and the Pleiades (WAY TO GO DON! :)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 05:21:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 28


     Has anyone out there read "UFO contact from the Pleiades" by
Wendelle C. Stevens? Just yesterday (coincidentially on 11-9-1-9-9-1)
I discovered this book in a friend's house (which was gotten at a yard
sale!) who kindly let me borrow it. Anyway, this is an awesome 542
page book (mainly covering the sightings/experiences of Billy Meier)
which goes way in depth, with lots of UFO pictures, for those who are
interestested in these Pleiadian people (for example, got your
curiosity stirred up by reading Don's "Pleiadian Transcripts".)
     And speaking of Don Showen, I found his name mentioned in the
book! (I assume this *is* the Don who is always making those posts to
this group.) Anyway, his name was mentioned on page 381 of the version
I have, and since the version of the book is (C) 1982 at the latest, I
guess Don has been in this business for a while! The text of the
paragraph in which I found his name is reproduced below: (Part of
Appendix IV - Analysis of UFO Photographs.)

     "I wish to thank the many individuals who have inspired me and
offered their experience. Among them, Jim and Coral Lorenzen of APRO,
Col. Wendelle Stevens, Marcel Vogel of IBM, Dr. Bernard Friedlander,
Bill Spaulding, & Emile Touraine. Also Don Showen and Rick Coupland
who are experts in their own right."   ^^^^^^^^^^

     Way to go Don! - Keep up the good work! :)

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!graziano
From: [e-mail] (Steven Graziano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Actual Encounters?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 05:59:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom Services
Lines: 15

[e-mail] (Mike Brazinskas) writes:
: I was expecting that this board have testimonials on actual alien
: encounters. All I've been reading is debates on whether or not such
: visitors exist. What we need are more testimonials!
:
: Allow me to begin. When I was very young and living in Connecticut, I
: was sleeping in my bedroom in a two-story house one evening. I don't
: know how I woke up, but I did. When I did wake up, I saw a huge,
: glowing sphere hovering just outside my window. I thought it was the
: moon coming up to my window, but this sphere was glowing on its own.
: It couldn't have been a dream because it was all too real.
:
:
: --
: INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 23:04:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 34

Ryk Spoor (Sea Wasp) says proof of telepathy, if it exists
is simple, etc.

Not necessarily so.  This is perhaps one of those things that
are not within the "provable" for the simple reason it may go
beyond time and space and what is "measurable" for the scientic
mind, etc.

Regarding your question to what is an egoic boundar?  At this
point, I would say:  forget it, Ryk.  I think perhaps you are
quite locked into one.  Expanded awareness, from what I can ascertain,
goes beyond time, space, and bodily awareness.  Egoic boundary thinks
something along these lines:  I am Ryk.  Only science has saved me.
When I die, I am gone."

That is the type of thing egoic boundaries do..actually limit the
idea of self, and "me against you" type of thinking/philosophy.

I am all for Reality, and as a person with a mystically bent way
of thinking/perceiving, I feel each must find his/her own Reality
in their own way and time.  If yours is science, that's great.  But
please do not try to lock your scientific thinking onto other people
and their way of being.  And you need not get insulting by saying:
"This is what I believe and you can forget it".

I feel I am just wasting my time here.  My own advice to you is don'g
don't wait for a UFO alien to come knocking on your shoulder.
I don't think it is going to happen.  But just because it does or
will not happen to you, does not mean it hasn't happened to others.
THAT , to me, is an open mind:  reserving judgment and staying,
simply, "open".  You can not fill an already filled cup with its'
own pre-conceived ideas about the nature of things.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 00:37:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 73

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor (Sea Wasp) says proof of telepathy, if it exists
>is simple, etc.
>Not necessarily so.  This is perhaps one of those things that
>are not within the "provable" for the simple reason it may go
>beyond time and space and what is "measurable" for the scientic
>mind, etc.

    It's not at all unprovable if it exists. Simple. You need only
to demonstrate it before a trained observer. You want to demonstrate
telepathy? Tell me something known ONLY TO ME, that you could have
only gotten from my mind. I could even give you hints. But so far,
no so-called telepath has been able to do much in the way of
laboratory results. So what if it transcends time and space? I could
still measure the results (I thought "blue", she said "blue" and so
on) without having to immediately know how it works.

>quite locked into one.  Expanded awareness, from what I can ascertain,
>goes beyond time, space, and bodily awareness.  Egoic boundary thinks
>something along these lines:  I am Ryk.  Only science has saved me.
>When I die, I am gone."

    When I die, I am PROBABLY gone. It's possible that there is
something after death, but there is no evidence for the existence of
such an afterlife; therefore, it's a waste of my time to act as
though there is. Show me evidence.

>I am all for Reality, and as a person with a mystically bent way
>of thinking/perceiving, I feel each must find his/her own Reality
>in their own way and time.  If yours is science, that's great.  But

    Eh? In the words of Highlander, "There can be only one."
One REALITY, that is. You can have a different set of beliefs. You
can even have a different set of perceptions. But there is only ONE
Reality. Anyone who thinks that reality is a matter of opinion or
debate is invited to argue the matter with an oncoming bullet.
The bullet's answer will be swift, impressive, and utterly final.

>please do not try to lock your scientific thinking onto other people
>and their way of being.  And you need not get insulting by saying:
>"This is what I believe and you can forget it".

    No, that is the way you are arguing. The basic tone of your
replies is: "Ryk, I know the Truth, you are a silly little scientist
who cannot comprehend the Truth because you won't abandon your
beliefs... evidence? Oh, evidence is only for scientists..." With that
approach, you would not be sitting in front of a computer today. You'd
still be out there praying to the gods of nature for rain... and still
having a drought.

>I feel I am just wasting my time here.  My own advice to you is don'g
>don't wait for a UFO alien to come knocking on your shoulder.
>I don't think it is going to happen.  But just because it does or
>will not happen to you, does not mean it hasn't happened to others.

    I don't deny that it might have happened to others. But if
"they" have contacted people, it will be in real physical bodies
showing real physical evidence. Not through transferred consciousness
or whatever.

>THAT , to me, is an open mind:  reserving judgment and staying,
>simply, "open".  You can not fill an already filled cup with its'
>own pre-conceived ideas about the nature of things.

    Interesting. The only thing you're apparently closed about
is the one thing that has guided the human race out of caves: reason.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

(Sorry, people, but this Maclaineism stuff should go on alt.religion)
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Brazinskas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Actual Encounters?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 06:11:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3609/6 - Custom Comput, Palm Beach Gardens FL
Lines: 14

I was expecting that this board have testimonials on actual alien
encounters. All I've been reading is debates on whether or not such
visitors exist. What we need are more testimonials!

Allow me to begin. When I was very young and living in Connecticut, I
was sleeping in my bedroom in a two-story house one evening. I don't
know how I woke up, but I did. When I did wake up, I saw a huge,
glowing sphere hovering just outside my window. I thought it was the
moon coming up to my window, but this sphere was glowing on its own.
It couldn't have been a dream because it was all too real.


--
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <1991Nov10.213734.7399@anasaz>
Date: 10 Nov 91 21:37:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
]>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
]>>
]>>
]>>So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found
]>>in Texas or New Mexico???
]>>
]>>Yesterday, a couple of friends of mine called to asked if I had seen the
]>>news reports on TV about a "weird" organism that had been found and that
]>>scientists were baffled by.
]>
]>I saw part of this story on the local news.  "Organism" is the wrong word,
]>it looked like some kind of organ.  It looked like an irregular shaped
]>grey blob of meat about the size of a bowling ball.  The researchers
]>had cut it in half, and were sort of prodding and stretching it.  You
]>could see some "chambers" inside it.  It was definitely organic tissue
]>of some sort.  "Blob" is an accurate description.
]>
]>>Apparently it was a grey mass- kind of big(?)- that they were jokingly
]>>calling the blob, because they couldn't identify it.
]>>
]>>At last count, I heard that they had openied it and were trying to
]>>study it to place it in a "biological group."  They were running into
]>>some obstacles because tit was like something they had never seen.
]>
]>How about a less hysterical phrase, like "have yet to identify"?
]>It will probably turn out to be something quite mundane, like
]>those mysterious blobs of green ice, which turned out to be
]>airliner toilet flushings.  If it is something mundane, it won't
]>rate a followup report, and thus will fuel conspiracy theories
]>about a government cover-up.
]>
Yes but I've  heard about these "blobs" before so I would sure appreciate a
follow up. I'd like to know if there are any reports of cattle
mutilations in the immediate area at about the same time, whether there
is any unusual military interest in the organisim and, most importantly,
any allegations of human multilations or human disappearances in that
area around that time.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <1991Nov10.214519.7657@anasaz>
Date: 10 Nov 91 21:45:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>Gary, your e-mail address bounces. What's up?
]>--
]>Greg
]>
]>--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
Oh my God - they got him!  He wasn't crazy after all.  What will we do now?
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!coplex!disk!tony
From: [e-mail] (tony)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 23:51:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Digital Information Systems of KY
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Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17434 talk.religion.newage:7643 alt.atheism:17603 alt.alien.visitors:2936

[e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>>
>>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>>religion is the study of everything else.
>>>
>>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
>>art (the study of everything else).

>Oh, please.  I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks
>that fanatically religious people have caused.  Both science and religion
>are searches for truth.  Science searches for what is true about this physical
>universe.  Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
>one.  They really shouldn't interfere with each other.  And if the religious
>fanatics insist that something in this universe MUST be such-and-such a way,
>they should just let the scientists discover it for themselves.  And if the
>scientists discover that the religious fanatics are wrong, the fanatics should
>shut up.

    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
hoax.
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 02:30:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 25

Sea Wasp goes on about "if it exists, it is provable"
and also on about One Reality.

I agree with you:  there is only ONE Reality.  But Reality is
like a diamond, it has many facets.

People like you who sneer and scoff at others (such as with
your quote by "Maclainism", actually do yourself an injustice.
You just show others your own judgmental, limited thinking.

Try doing some work with energy, such as Therapeutic Touch (which
I have been doing for years).  You might surprise yourself to
find out yourself to be functioning on other levels of intuitive
knowing, things that may "not" be provable to your intellect,
but very much a fact that it is happening.  This has been my
own experience and I found how I actually have levels of awareness
that simply are not understandable to my human brain and are
not provable.  Read the book Therapeutic Touch by Delores Krieger,
R.N.

Just because you can not prove it does not mean it does not exist.

(And that's exactly how your postings come across:  close minded).

Kathy
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From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Summary: Explanations for people on Venus.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 01:58:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 63


[e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) and att!cbnewsc!ihlpy!jtgdba@beaver
(Redheaded Goddess) have recently been discussing about whether or not
there are people on Venus, although unfortunately the original topic
being analyzed has been laid aside in their exchanges of articles.

SeaWasp says that he can't conceive of how any form of life can exist
on Venus because of the hostile atmospheric conditions that would make
any form of physical life impossible. He is not a close minded skeptic
since he has claimed to have personally seen a UFO, but rather has
been making some honest questions.

It is my strong opinion that there are alien people currently living
on Venus. I do not have any direct personal experience of any
extraterrestrials from this planet, so I can only give my views:

UFO's, similar to the one SeaWasp has seen, have been known to do
things which defy physical understanding, such as make right angle
turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law, as well as
"disappear" outright. One need only to ask the countless people who
have seen UFO's to testify to this.

Now the reason why the people on Venus aren't harmed by it's
atmosphere is that they live on the astral plane of vibrational
frequency. The astral plane isn't really a location, but rather a
higher state of vibration (similar to the solid/liquid/gas, but this
is much higher than any of them). This explains how UFO's "dissappear"
- they aren't really going anywhere, but are rather just increasing
their frequency so that we can't discern them anymore.

Since there is no scientific proof in the general community that
verifies the astral plane exists (although that does not mean it does
NOT exist - just ask the many people who have had OOBE's, etc; this is
the same state) allow me to give an analogy to help explain things.
"Astral" things can be thought of as (somewhat) similar to TV/radio
waves. You can't see them physically with your senses, but yet they
can contain more or less everything our ordinary physical realm can. A
TV set (or a "psychic" person) tuned into the right frequency can take
these waves and transform them back into that which can be seen with
the senses. Note that our ordinary physical motions can't hurt the
astral objects - waving your hands around the TV set won't hurt the
image. They are both different worlds.

This is why the Venusian people aren't hurt by their atmosphere -
being astral they aren't affected by it (also were we to actually go
to Venus we would see no evidence of any life), although with their
advanced technology they can lower themselves so they and their ships
can be seen by us. (And raise it so they and their craft can
dissappear.)

Again I can't prove any of this (although one *can* experience it,
e.g. learn to have OOBE's yourself), but I am convinced that as our
scientific knowledge increases (especially our studies of subatomic,
radio and quantum stuff) we will soon become aware of these astral
areas and be able to "prove" and use them, as well as eventually make
our own ships and become as these aliens ourselves!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ "Few things matter much...                                                 /
/                  ... most things do not matter at all" - Bishop Leadbeater \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!gumby!kzoo!k080093
From: [e-mail] (Josh N. Vander Berg)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 02:35:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kalamazoo College
Lines: 14
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17436 talk.religion.newage:7644 alt.atheism:17607 alt.alien.visitors:2939

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (tony) writes:
>    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
>when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
>hoax.

Well, I had heard no such thing, I heard that they had tested a piece of cloth
that had been attached to the shroud for the purpose of carrying the shroud
without damaging it.  This piece of cloth could have easily been put on the
shroud in the middle ages, even though the shroud was of an earlier origin.  I
believe that it is a hoax, but it has not been PROVEN to be such by atomic
dating methods.

--
Josh Vander Berg.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!jwt!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 07:53:14 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Waffle login)
Organization: The Matrix
Lines: 148


     This is the outline of my story, as neatly condensed as can
be done with almost 10 years of nightmarish things occuring to me.

     I moved to Los Angeles when I was 10.  I hated every minute
of living there, as the people there are the most (in my opinion)
heinous creatures residing on the face of the Earth.  Although I
made friends, I dropped out of high school due to harrassment.  I
moved to San Diego, where I attended Grossmont Junior College, and
maintained appoximately a 3.0 average.  It was there that I had
the first of my two UFO sightings, and where I discovered that for
some reason unknown to me, people were following me around.

     In 1974, I dropped out of Grossmont, and using the
inheritance left by my grandmother, I began to travel the country
looking for a 4-year college to go to.  It was at Shenendoah
Caverns in Virginia that I discovered that I was being followed by
people from California.  I was coming out of the cave tour, and
noticed a car with California plates that I had seen at other
places I had been visiting.  I wanted to see if my suspicions were
correct, so I stood next to the car, and waited for the owners to
appear.  A group of people started to come out of the gift shop,
then saw me standing there, and RAN back into the gift shop in
absolute terror.  I called the local Sheriff's department, and
they sent an officer out, but when he got there he told me they
were busy looking for an escaped convict to take the time to
bother with it.  He offered to give me an escort back to the
highway, which I accepted.  The people had been pretending to be
looking around the gift shop during this time, all the while
glancing out the window at us with evil expressions on their
faces.  As I drove after the police car out of the parking area,
they came running out of the gift shop, jumped into their car, and
drove away at high speed in the opposite direction.

Incidents similar to this occurred throughout my trip.  I drove
back to LA in misery, having not discovered any college I liked
too well.  When I got back to LA, my parents had sold our house,
and had moved into an apartment.  In the parking lot of the
apartment building, a few weeks later, I discovered the exact car
that had been at the caverns that day.  I was very concerned, to
say the least.  I made sure that my parents moved out of that
apartment and found them an apartment nearby, which I felt was the
best one security-wise in the area, at which they still live
today.

     Over the years, I had run-ins all over LA, while working for
my dad's company, with evil people, which could not be construed as
anything other than purposeful conspiracy.  I could document
these, but it would be quite numerous and time-consuming.  Suffice
it to say that I knew that SOMEONE rich or powerful had it in for
me, for whatever reason they had.  I suspected it could be from a
bus trip I took when I was 16 around the country, on which several
rich kids got furious at me for stealing their girlfriend, and
tried to murder me in Williamsburg in the motel we were staying
at, and later told me in no uncertain terms near the end of the
trip that they would harrass me for the rest of my life.  However,
from what has transpired, I believe this MAY have been just the
possible start of a widespread conspiracy against me.  I know now
that this also involves religion and the occult, as well as the
secret government and alien beings.

After many years of working for my dad, I got into computers from
a fair at USC.  I eventually became intimately involved with the
Arpanet, and had signons on virtually every computer in the
country, which I accessed out of a site in Marina Del Rey, known
as USC-ISI.  I learned the secrets of the inner workings of the
entire Arpanet, and spent two years, day and night at the site,
making use of one of the most powerful signons on the network.  I
used this knowledge to discover Tallahassee and FSU, which I
attended for several years.

Everywhere I would go to try to get a job, my enemies would follow
me.  I attended Tallahassee Community College in 1981, in order to
complete my AA degree.  Some strange things started happening, and
I suspected that my enemies or the CIA or FBI or "someone" was
in my classes for the purpose of watching me.  I received
continuing disturbing phone calls from my parents, and unusual
problems with my phone led me to believe that the phone company
was being run by government forces, out to sabotage my life for
some reason.  This opinion was determined when a "classmate" in my
psychology class ran me around all over town, during an attempt to
get to the bottom of it all, after a Sheriff's deputy had told me
that it was what I was thinking.  In a botched attempt to meet
with him, this classmate and I were sitting in the Sheriff's
station with the watch commander, when he said to me, "Gary, these
people wouldn't follow you all over the country, unless there was
a good reason, or A PLOT TO KILL THE PRESIDENT!!"  The last part
he screamed at me.  He also asked me to leave the office, and when
he opened the door again, the watch commander was looking at me
like I was some kind of assassin.

So, that night I called up the Secret Service in Jacksonville, and
spoke to an agent and told him what had happened.  He told me that
I was correct in contacting him, and that he would call me in the
morning.  When, the next morning, the call never came, I called
back the office.  A man answered the phone, and when I asked for
the agent I had spoken to, he asked me who I was, and when I told
him, he informed me that the agent had just gone on vacation, and
they were not interested in talking to me anymore.  He made
repeated suggestions that I immediately go check into a mental
hospital.  I suggested he do the same, and hung up.  I was
extremely concerned, to say the least.

At this point in time, the thought of clones NEVER even entered my
mind.  I was only convinced that the CIA was behind it, mainly
because a friend of mine's father worked for them, and when I told
him what was happening, he told me to sit tight and he would get
back to me.  Two weeks later, he contacted me on the Plato
computer system at FSU, and told me that his dad had gotten hold
of my file.  He sounded frantic, and told me to stay off of
computers, that they didn't trust people on computers.  He advised
me to leave and never return.  From the sound of it, it must have
been something pretty bad, and although he wouldn't tell me
exactly what was going on, he made it clear that I was definitely
under exactly the intense scrutiny I had suspected.

The day before I was supposed to meet with the deputy, I went to
the Attorney General's office at the Capitol here, and demanded to
know who the "agents" were in my classes.  Some BS followed, and I
was sent to a basement office in a downtown building.  When I
entered, the guy in the room was talking on the phone about how he
could get money for running stolen cars across state lines.  I
asked for the name I had been given, and he told me that was the
Chief, and to sit in a chair at his desk.  After a few minutes,
the Chief walked in.  He plopped down in the chair, leaned back,
gave a long sigh, then asked, "Why are these people following
you?"  I was taken aback, as I had NOT told that at the Attorney
General's office, but had mentioned it when I had tried to see the
Governor, then Senator Bob Graham.  I was scared and said, "I
DON'T KNOW!!"  He said, "But for SEVEN YEARS!!  If they had wanted
you out of the way, they would have just WASTED YOU!!"

He then spoke a lot of drug-paraphenalia type talk which had
absoulutely nothing to do with what I was saying.  It was BS!!
He asked if I had any knowledge of who these people were, and I
told him I had taken down license numbers of cars all over the
country that were following me, and then he leaned across the desk
and looked REAL hard at me and said, "I NEED that list!!"  I told
him I probably threw it away, and then he became obstinent, and
told me that if I thought someone was following me, to call him at
the number on "his" card, and he would run the license numbers.
Then he led me out of the "office".

I will follow with information on exactly how and when I knew that
my parents had been cloned, and more on how I was forced illegally
into mental hospitals against my will.  Take care, fellow humans!!

          Gary Stollman
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock
From: [e-mail] (carol zarbock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Is this alt.alien or alt.newage?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 14:11:51 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Lines: 8

I for one, am rather amazed at some of the discussions going
on here.  I am NOT a skeptic, mind you.

But I'm beginning to wonder if this is alt.alien or
alt.newage?

Regards,
Carol
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bessel.as.utexas.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (William H. Jefferys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 15:04:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin
Lines: 31
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17445 talk.religion.newage:7645 alt.atheism:17618 alt.alien.visitors:2942

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Josh N. Vander Berg) writes:
#In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (tony) writes:
#>    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
#>when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
#>hoax.
#
#Well, I had heard no such thing, I heard that they had tested a piece of cloth
#that had been attached to the shroud for the purpose of carrying the shroud
#without damaging it.  This piece of cloth could have easily been put on the
#shroud in the middle ages, even though the shroud was of an earlier origin.  I
#believe that it is a hoax, but it has not been PROVEN to be such by atomic
#dating methods.

This is incorrect. From the article that reported the
results of the [14]C dating [P.E. Damon et al, 'Radiocarbon
Dating of the Shroud of Turin', _Nature_ 337, 611-615
(Feb. 16, 1989). Top of p. 612.]

  "The shroud was separated from the backing cloth
  along its bottom left-hand edge and a strip
  (~ 10 mm x 70 mm) was cut from just above the place
  where a sample was previously removed in 1973 for
  examination. The strip came from a single site
  _on the main body of the shroud_ away from any
  patches or charred areas." [emphasis added].

This clearly indicates that the sample was taken
from the shroud itself and not from the backing
cloth.

Bill
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Nov 91 22:16:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 22


/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission.

WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!  GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS
TO RECEIVE EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLAN-B DOCUMENTS!

CEASE ALL CLONING ACTIVITIES UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

INFORM ALL CLONES TO OBTAIN ORIGINAL HANDWRITING SAMPLES OF THEIR HOST HUMANS.

INITIATE AUTOMATED SUBLIMINAL TRANSMISSIONS TO ALL TV AND RADIO STATIONS.

ORGANIZE SEARCH GROUPS TO FIND AND TERMINATE THE EARTHING IDENTIFIED AS
'GARY STOLLMAN'.  HE IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN IMMEDIATE AND SERIOUS THREAT TO
OUR GOALS.  USE WHATEVER MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO REMOVE THIS MENACE FROM US,
EVEN IF YOU MUST ELIMINATE OTHER HUMANS TO COMPLETE THE OBJECTIVE.

WE MUST NOT FAIL.  OUR GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED.  THE 'GREAT ONE' EXPECTS ONLY
SUCCESS FROM US.  HE WILL NOT ACCEPT FAILURE.  STOP AT NOTHING TO COMPLETE
YOUR MISSION.

/*/* End transmission.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!ia80024
From: [e-mail] (Nicholas C. Hester)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Nov 91 14:20:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> says:
>
>/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission.
>
>WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!  GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS
>TO RECEIVE EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLAN-B DOCUMENTS!
>
>CEASE ALL CLONING ACTIVITIES UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
>
>INFORM ALL CLONES TO OBTAIN ORIGINAL HANDWRITING SAMPLES OF THEIR HOST HUMANS.
>
>INITIATE AUTOMATED SUBLIMINAL TRANSMISSIONS TO ALL TV AND RADIO STATIONS.
>
>ORGANIZE SEARCH GROUPS TO FIND AND TERMINATE THE EARTHING IDENTIFIED AS
>'GARY STOLLMAN'.  HE IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN IMMEDIATE AND SERIOUS THREAT TO
>OUR GOALS.  USE WHATEVER MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO REMOVE THIS MENACE FROM US,
>EVEN IF YOU MUST ELIMINATE OTHER HUMANS TO COMPLETE THE OBJECTIVE.
>
>WE MUST NOT FAIL.  OUR GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED.  THE 'GREAT ONE' EXPECTS ONLY
>SUCCESS FROM US.  HE WILL NOT ACCEPT FAILURE.  STOP AT NOTHING TO COMPLETE
>YOUR MISSION.
>
>/*/* End transmission.

Wow!!  Those Fundamentalist Xtians are really getting radical!!!
__

 Nicholas C. Hester
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  An UFO over Mexico city.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 22:59:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott the Great) writes:
>
>So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in
>Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found
>in Utah?  Inquiring minds want to know...

What mysterious organism in Texas?  Do you mean the mysterious organism in
St. Louis, Missouri, or is there another one?

By the way, I'm going to post the story for those who didn't see it.  I was
mainly waiting for someone else to mention it so I didn't look ridiculous,
because I doubt if very many people saw it.  (If you saw it somewhere other
than WNEP's noon newscast, two Fridays ago, let me know.)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 23:12:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dusty Garza) writes:
>
>
>So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found
>in Texas or New Mexico???

IF you're talking about the one found in St. Louis, Missouri, I know what
you're talking about (but not much else.)

>"Where have you been- asked my friend- it's being talked about EVERYWHERE!"
>
>I haven't heard anything else.... has anyone else out there?!?!

I saw an ABC report on it one time, in what would normally be the
end-of-the-show human-interest slot in the noon newscast on a local ABC
station.  I will post a summary of the report later tonight.  (Actually,
it'll probably be very soon to you since I only batch news once a day.)

Since it was on the noon newscast, I didn't expect many people to see it
and I wasn't sure whether to say anything about it at the risk of being
accused of making it up.  I'm STARTLED that "it's being talked about
EVERYWHERE!".  I haven't seen it here, or on CIS, or on ParaNet, so where
are all these people talking about it?    (I have access to the Fido UFO
echo, but I don't have the money or the time to read it.  If there are
messages about it there, could someone please post them here?)

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms
From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 04:44:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence
Lines: 30

OK, the story (as reported by ABC, possibly on November 1) is as follows:

About "a month ago", the police in St. Louis, Missouri, found a box
alongside the road "near Highway 100 and Deer Creek Road in West County".
Inside the box was a glass jar full of vinegar, and in the vinegar was the
"blob".  It consists of four parts, of which one is a tentacle.  It has no
bones or hair.    The police say that Woods Hole marine biology lab, in
Massachusetts, told them they thought it was a land animal rather than a
marine animal.    A veterinarian at the St. Louis zoo couldn't identify it.
It allegedly has no identifiable cartilage, tendons, nerves, or blood
vessels.  Aside from the tentacle, it appears to be an elastic brown/grey
ball, divided into two hemispheres joined at the bottom.  (I don't know if
it was found this way or if they cut it open.)    It has cavities inside the
hemispheres.  I couldn't see any other features in the hemispheres; the
texture appeared smooth and if I remember rightly it was fairly homogenous.
I really can't describe the tentacle or the other part.

I found it interesting that absolutely no-one in the report, from the
police officer to the veterinarian to the reporter, was identified either
verbally or by caption.

This message may be cross-posted anywhere provided that I get a copy of any
meaningful replies to it.  (Posting them to this newsgroup would be fine.)
I'm posting it to Paranet myself.

--
 *  From the disk of: | [e-mail]               | I'm in a groove now
 Jim Shaffer, Jr.     | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms           | -- or is it a rut?
 37 Brook Street      | [e-mail] |
 Montgomery, PA 17752 | [e-mail]      | (Rush, "Face Up")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!vax1.cc.lehigh.edu!lehigh.bitnet!PML3
From: [e-mail] (Paul M. Lewis)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 04:47:30 GMT
Lines: 15
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17451 alt.alien.visitors:2948

I found Communion very unbelievable.  A terrible piece of writing, on
top of that.

Does Strieber still maintain that book is true?


Paul Lewis | 'The love you take is equal to the love you make.'        |
           |       -The Beatles, 'The End'                             |
   Read    | 'Where does time go?  I don't know.'                      |
'Whitewash'|       -Michael Stipe, 'Get Up'                            |
    by     | 'True leaders gone, of land and people.'                  |
  Harold   |       -Perry Farrell, 'Three Days'   =Farewell, Jane's=   |
 Weisberg  | 'We turned in horror toward the back of the grassy knoll  |
           |  where it seemed the sounds had originated.'              |
___________|_______-Cheryl McKinnon, witness to the murder of J.F.K.___|
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 19:00:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 6


This organism is or are obviously infant clones of Gary Stollman.

        Steve

        Beware the Jub Jub Bird
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!cmcl2!panix!gcf
From: [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 11:29:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <s64421.689515152@zeus>
Organization: mydog in exile
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17454 alt.paranormal:3620 alt.alien.visitors:2950 talk.religion.newage:7652

In article <s64421.689515152@zeus> [e-mail] (house ron) writes:
|                ...  The lack of definite values of certain unobservables
| is experimentally established.  For example, in a two slit experiment, say
| with electrons, you are probably tempted to say "obviously each particular
| electron Either went through one slit OR it went through the other.  Not
| so.  The experiment would have a different result if it were so.  It
| really and truly is that the electron was in a linear superposition
| of the states <went through slit A> and <went through slit B>.  Often
| thought incomprehensible, or unmeasureable, but it has been verified.

Has this experiment been constructed so that the electron could be
known not to have gone through both slits at once?  After all, an
electron isn't a billiard ball.  From the point of view of physical
observation -- our observation -- an electron seems more like a
cloud of electron-probabilities.  I don't know that any physical
structure for an electron has ever been postulated, much less
observed.  While _we_ find it difficult to be in two places at one
time, except in explaining what we were doing at work when no one
could find us, electrons may do it as a matter of course.
--
* Gordon Fitch | [e-mail] | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf *
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 19:58:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 21
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 11 Nov 91 01:58:47 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> It is my strong opinion that there are alien people currently living
> on Venus. I do not have any direct personal experience of any
> extraterrestrials from this planet, so I can only give my views:
>
> UFO's, similar to the one SeaWasp has seen, have been known to do
> things which defy physical understanding, such as make right angle
> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law, as well as
> "disappear" outright. One need only to ask the countless people who
> have seen UFO's to testify to this.

  (more stuff about higher states of vibration)

    What does any of this have to do with Venus?

> Again I can't prove any of this (although one *can* experience it,
> e.g. learn to have OOBE's yourself), but I am convinced that as our

    I have had a number of OOBEs and I have found no reason (other than that
they SEEM to be real) to assume that they are any more real than lucid dreams.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: 11:11
Keywords: 11:11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 19:59:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 645
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2952 alt.paranormal:3622


This article was posted earlier this year to the net. It being 11-11
today (and as I post this, it is also 11:11.11am local time) I figured
this would be an appropriate time for this message from Solara, a
great angel from the Central Sun, to be once again shared:

    =======================================================
            The Next Major Planetary Activation

                11:11    January 11, 1992

    11:11 is a pre-encoded trigger placed within our cellular memory
    banks prior to our descent into matter which, when activated,
    signifies that our time of completion is near.

    The 11:11 is hereby being activated....

    The Call To Activation

    Here we stand in the midst of great changes.  The survival of planet
    Earth and all of its inhabitants is now on the line.  We are constantly
    being pulled back and forth between an ingoing and an outgoing tide.
    This is causing turmoil, confusion and fear.  The outgoing tide is
    composed of the third and fourth dimensional energies of duality and
    separation which are in the process of being removed from our sphere.
    Hence their final battle for supremacy and control is now taking place.

    The ingoing tide represents the awareness of our inherent Oneness.  It
    resonates with our new Divine Dispensation and is our Call to Completion
    and Freedom.  It is our graduation from illusion and the next step on
    our journey homeward.  This is where we must now fully anchor our beings
    in order to keep our balance between these two very different energy
    patternings.

    Ahead of us lies a tremendous task, to open the Doorway of the 11:11 and
    to move onto a new spiral of consciousness.  In order to achieve this,
    *in order even to survive through these tumultuous times, we must fully
    focus and align ourselves irrevocably on the outer levels, we must keep
    a positive outlook!  Remain centered and remember at all times what is
    truly in play.  Do not allow yourself to feed the negative energy
    patternings by giving them life.  Do not propagate doom and gloom.
    Remember that they are all based on third dimensional illusion.  They
    do not emanate from the Greater Reality.

    Whenever you begin to get drawn into the outgoing illusions, simply
    pause, realign your being and quietly state that you do not accept
    this reality.  Remain focused on the great awakening currently taking
    place on Earth, remember who you really are and see the Doorway of the
    11:11 open and this activated Arc of Light serving as our bridge to
    the new Divine Dispensation which contains New Octaves of harmony,
    peace and Oneness.

    This anchoring of your being into the Greater Reality is crucial to the
    fulfillment of the Divine Plan on Earth.  Your total commitment is
    needed now!

       "Here we stand, poised on the brink of a great adventure,
            that we, ourselves, have called forth to be!"

    The time has finally arrived which we have long awaited.  Truly, do we
    stand poised on the brink of a great adventure!  This great adventure
    is the fulfillment of our Divine Mission on Planet Earth.  It is our
    graduation from the template of duality enabling us to rise up into
    true Mastery and Freedom.  We are now entering upon the time of    comple-
    tion.  This is the beginning of the next phase of our journey Homeward.

    We have long carried within us, *pre-encoded into our cellular memory
    banks*, the memories, knowledge and sealed orders which shall serve us
    in these times of completion.  These were placed within us long ago,
    prior to experiencing our initial descent into matter.  The fulfillment
    of our Divine Missions is the reason we chose to come to Earth in the
    first place!

    Throughout our cycle of embodiments upon Earth, we have laboriously
    prepared to be ready to serve in our fullest capacity when the pre-
    ordained time arrived.  And the time is now.  The Call to Awaken has
    already resounded across the Celestial Vastness, calling us to remember
    and ultimately, *to embody*, that which we truly are in our full magni-
    ficence and empowerment.

    Now we are issuing the Call to Activation.  This activation entails
    that each of us faces a decision of tremendous importance and lasting
    consequences.  Our choice is whether or not we will answer and serve
    this Call with the fullness of our beings and with unshakable commit-
    ment to serving our Higher Purpose.  Our choices must be made now.
    Please, choose wisely with your full consciousness, for the results
    of the choices made now shall be with you for a very long time and
    will affect all levels of your life.

     "Great times require both greatness of spirit and greatness of
      action."

    Together we have much to accomplish.  What we are being called to
    achieve is of a scope far greater than anything we can presently
    imagine.  The Earth herself, is nearing her time of graduation from
    the third dimensional patterning and, she who has succored our needs
    for so long, now needs our help to birth her into a New Octave of
    Oneness.  And by serving as Earth's midwives we, *the awakened
    humanity of Earth*, also birth ourselves onto a new spiral of
    evolution.

    Our first task is to transform ourselves into awakened multidimensional
    beings, thus fully merging the 4th and 5th dimensions into the 3rd.  It
    is the inner union between Earth ascending and Heaven descending.  This
    sacred merger had already been achieved by many of us and numerous
    others are awakening daily as the Call steadily intensifies.  We are
    reclaiming our Divine Birthright and Heritage, remembering that we are
    Angels incarnate, vast starry beings of Light who are no longer limited
    to and bound by the illusions of time, space and matter.

    Now we are ready to join together as emanations of the One  Indeed, this
    is of primary importance, for the great work in front of us requires
    that we unite as a collective whole.  The new doorways cannot be opened
    or passed through by any of us still operating as individual units of
    consciousness.  They are brought into manifestation through our Unified
    Presence, through our focused intent, through our total commitment to
    serving our Higher Purpose.

     "We hereby announce the next major planetary activation to take
          place on January 11, 1992.  This is the Opening of the Doorway
      of the 11:11.

    This is the most important evolutionary step we have ever taken on
    Planet Earth!  It heralds the completion of the spiral which we have
    traveled on since the inception of Earth.  The 11:11 signifies a time
    when the planet Earth and all of humanity shall be given the opportunity
    to move onto a new spiral of consciousness.

    The 11:11 is the bridge to an entirely different spiral or energy
    patterning.  It is the step beyond the known dimensional universe into
    a new patterning of Octaves.  It is a journey into the Unknown which
    shall lead us ever closer home.  The Opening of the 11:11 is a major
    planetary activation on a scale never before experienced.  The full
    participation of each of you is needed in order to open this doorway.

    The Call is hereby issued to you from On High.  On the earthplane it
    has been received and amplified through Solara Antara Amaa-Ra who has
    long served as a messenger to humanity from the Golden, Solar Angels
    of the Great Central Sun.  Her task has been to reawaken the Star-
    Borne and to facilitate the accelerated path homeward.

    This cycle of major planetary activations was begun on December 31,
    1985 with the World Peace Meditation called forth by John Randolph
    Price.  Next was the Harmonic Convergence on August 16-17, 1987
    activated by Jose Arguelles.  Then came Earth Link in February, 1988
    centered over Uluru in Australia, brought forth by Vincent Selleck.
    The last big one was Earth Day, celebrated on April 20, 1990.

    Concurrently, we have had a series of smaller planetary events, such
    as Star Link in 1988 - activating the Angelic Vortex in Los Angeles,
    California, Crystal Light Link - activating the crystal grids in
    April, 1989 and Time Warp in November, 1989.  Each of these activations
    has served to further bring the planet and humanity into an increased
    sense of Oneness - healing, transforming and ushering new levels of
    consciousness into the planetary Logos.

    All of these quantum leaps have brought us to the place of readiness
    where we stand right now.  And now we are called upon to prepare for
    the most important activation thus far.  This is the Opening of the
    Doorway of the 11:11.

    The symbol of 11:11 was pre-encoded into our cellular memory banks
    long ago, before we ever made our initial descent into matter.  It
    was placed into us, seared into our very fibers and DNA of our beings,
    as part of our preparations prior to beginning our cycles of incarna-
    tions upon the Earth.  The 11:11 has rested dormantly within us since
    that faraway time, positioned under a time-release mechanization,
    complete with sealed orders which would open when the 11:11 was fully
    activated.  It has been gently sleeping, awaiting its moment of
    triggering.  And now with the dissemination of this information, the
    11:11 is finally being activated.

    11:11 is our pre-encoded trigger that our time of completion is near.
    Many of you have recognized this symbol as something of great signi-
    ficance, yet have been unaware of its true meaning.  With the advent
    of digital clocks many years ago, the presence of 11:11 began to make
    itself felt, often appearing on the clock at moments of accelerated
    awareness.  For those of you who have known that 11:11 was something
    special, we ask you to come forth into positions of leadership for you
    hold important parts of the key.  Let your sealed orders be now opened!

    The Star-Borne

    The Star-Borne are all of us presently incarnate who know that we
    originate from somewhere beyond this planet.  We are beginning to
    remember that we chose to undergo incarnation on Earth in order to
    serve in the transmutation of matter.  And that once this was
    achieved we would be able to move both the planet and the portions
    of humanity *who will choose themselves* onto an entirely new
    evolutionary template.  This is our graduation from the dimensional
    illusions of duality and separation, our step into mastery and freedom,
    our fulfillment of our Divine Missions, and our return home to
    conscious Oneness.

    Right now, at this very moment, there is a mass awakening of the
    Star-Borne taking place on Earth.  This awakening is of utmost
    importance, for it is crucial to the opening of the 11:11 that the
    Star-Borne awaken, remember, activate and rise up into their fullest
    empowerment!  This is what we came here to do; this is the moment that
    we have been long awaiting - yearning for in the depths of our hearts
    while calling out to our starry brethren at night.

    Our preparations for this time have been lengthy and arduously lonely.
    We have now entered the Time of Completion wherein freedom beckons to
    us from the other side of the Doorway.  Please, do not miss this
    Golden Opportunity which has never before been presented to us and
    shall not be offered again for countless aeons!

    The Map of the 11:11

    The Doorway of the 11:11 is the bridge between two spirals.  *This
    bridge is the channel of our mass ascension.*      In the old spiral
    is the patterning which contains dimensions 1-6.
    These are the boundaries of our known dimensional universe.  This is
    the spiral which we have traveled on since our first earthly exper-
    iences.  Inherent within this patterning is the illusion of duality
    and separation.  Herein we have labored under the concept that we
    were individualized units of consciousness, separate from the Source,
    stranded beings searching for God.  Here we felt ourselves alone,
    abandoned perhaps, ever striving to remember something of vast
    importance which always resided just beyond the grasp of our conscious
    minds.  Yet, there has always been embedded within us a deep yearning
    to return Home, though we knew not where that magical place, or state
    of consciousness, might be found.

                                   THE OLD SPIRAL

           The Beyond             /
                                 /                        our Solar System
           *                    / Stargates/
           Great Central Sun   /  Midway
                              /   Stations
                             /
                            /



                  THE NEW SPIRAL OF THE 11:11

                            Octave 7                  Great Central
                               o                      Sun System
                              / \
                   Birdstar  /   \ Starbird
                          11:11   \                 / Beyond the Beyond
                           /       \               /
                          /         \             /
                Earth    o           o Octave 11 /


    After we pass through the Doorway of the 11:11 we shall move onto a
    new spiral formation.  The patterning found herein is one of octaves.
    It contains Octave 7-11.  It is free of the dimensional experiences
    and contains new levels of consciousness.  Octave 7 is where the
    Earth shall reside.  It is here where the new dispensation will be
    revealed and brought into full manifestation.  This is where we shall
    experience the prophesied 1000 years of peace.

    One of the most imporant aspects of the new spiral patterning is that
    we shall truly know that we are One and we will no longer feel separate
    from the Source.

    Most of the ones who will journey to Octave 7 shall remain there to
    build on the new.  However, a small group of us shall choose to
    continue onwards to Octave 11.  In Octave 11, another repatterning
    is possible, which leads to the Beyond the Beyond.

    The Great Central Sun Systems

    Movement through the 11:11 shifts the positional alignment from our
    current Great Central Sun System to what we term a Greater Central
    Sun System.  We have been held into position with our Great Central
    Sun through a process of polarization.  This has functioned as a
    magnetic attraction since our Central Sun has resided in Oneness
    and we on Earth in duality.  In order to loosen ourselves from our
    old spiral, we must rise into our inherent Oneness.  This shall free
    us to move through the Doorway of the 11:11 into Octave 7.  Here we
    shall find ourselves aligned with a Greater Central Sun System.

    The Opening of the Doorway

    In order to open this doorway we need a critical mass number of a
    minimum of 144,000 activated Star-Borne to unite together in conscious
    Oneness worldwide on January 11, 1992.  This activation shall be
    centered at the Great Pyramids in Giza, Egypt.  This is due to the
    powerful alignment there of both the Master Grid (A Grid) and B Grid
    vortexes.  It is the only location on the planet where these two
    major planetary grid systems are presently aligned and activated,
    hence there is a double helix vortex present.  The Great Pyramids
    have long served as the beacon for remembrance of our starry origins
    and contain the key for our homeward journey.

    The doorway of the 11:11 opens once and it closes once.  Only one
    may pass through.  This one is our Unified Presence, the many as One.
    The 11:11 shall open on January 11, 1992 and close on December 31,
    2011.  Unless at least 144,000 of us gather together either physically
    or in spirit throughout the planet on January 11, 1992, the 11:11 will
    not open at all and we shall have missed this Golden Opportunity for
    our mass ascension into new realms of consciousness.

    Numerology of January 11, 1992

    This date can also be written as 1.11.1992.  Notice that it contains
    an 11:11 within the 1111992.  Together the numbers add up to 33 which
    is the master vibration number of Universal Service. 1+11+21=33.

    The Legions of Archangel Mikael

    This signifies a full activation of the Legions of Mikael or Michael.
    Archangel Mikael has long served as the Overseer of the spiral of
    duality.  Already, the commanders of his Legions presently incarnate
    upon Earth are being drawn together in order to prepare for this vast
    quantum leap for humanity.  The Call resounds across both Heaven and
    Earth in order to awaken, activate and empower all of your who serve
    in this vast Legion of Light.  Indeed, the time is at hand which we
    have long awaited.  Each of you is needed in your full Presence, for
    we must join together as One in order to fulfill our Divine Missions
    and complete our earthly span of service.  A mass activation is now
    in effect.  You have hereby been placed on full alert!

    The Doorway of the 11:11

    This can presently be perceived as a crack between two worlds.  It is
    like a gap or abyss which has the inherent potential of linking
    together two very different spheres of energy.  As we unite together
    as One, bringing together our fragments of the key, we not only create
    the key, but we make visible the doorway.  Thus the gap is currently
    functioning as an invisible door or a doorway into the invisible.

    Creating the Key

    The key which opens the doorway of the 11:11 is created by all of us
    joining together as One on a scale never before experienced on Earth.
    Each of us who are Star-Borne holds a piece of the key.  All of our
    fragments must be placed together in order for the door to open.  The
    sharing of our individual pieces of the key shall occur worldwide,
    beginning at the New Moon of January 4, 1992 which occurs at 11:11 PM
    and culminates on January 11, 1992.

    Turning the Key

    We call you to join with us on January 11, 1992 that together we may
    open the door.  The key is turned by us forming star mandalas of
    people, large and small, all over the planet.  At the appointed hour
    of 11:11 these myriad starry mandalas will begin to activate and turn
    in synchronicity with the large spiral at the Great Pyramids which
    shall be forming a master cylinder and be in continuous motion for at
    least 44 hours.  Thus we shall be creating wheels within wheels.  It
    is our combined activation that will open the doorway.  Further infor-
    mation on the formation of these star mandalas and spirals shall be
    forthcoming in further updates and demonstration videos..  This is a
    mass activation of the Star-Borne as never before experienced on Earth.

    A Glimpse Through the 11:11

    It is suggested that January 12 and 13 be spent in silence and devotion.
    These are High Hold Days in which you will be given the opportunity to
    experience the energies emanating from the New Octave.  A state of
    grace shall be in effect and many of you will be imprinted with pulsa-
    tions of Light frequencies.  Transmissions from the Beyond will also
    be received by those who place themselves in a state of open
    receptivity.  The Invisible will be made visible.  All will be pro-
    foundly touched and quickened by this experience.  It will greatly
    heighten the process of transfiguration, necessary for our mass
    ascension.

    Passing Through the Door

    It has been stated that only one passes through the Door.  That one
    is our Unified Presence.  It is created by our leaving behind our
    primary identifications with ourselves as individual units of con-
    sciousness and rising into a deep knowing and acceptance of our
    inherent Oneness.  It is a realization that we are all rays, or
    direct emanations of one star.

    Once we know that we are One, our Unified Presence takes the form
    of a vast white bird.  This large white bird is composed of myriad
    small white birds flying in formation as One.  It could be termed
    the merkabah or the Dove.  It is our vehicle for mass ascension.
    (This Dove is not a spaceship.  It is the expression of our Unified
    Presence!)  Our white bird is so immensely vast that it shall take
    us the full twenty years that the Doorway of the 11:11 is open to
    pass through its portals into the new spiral patterning of the
    Greater Central Sun System.

    The Heart of the Dove

    Our Dove does not fly in from somewhere else.  We, ourselves, create
    it.  It is brought to birth from the inside out, beginning in the
    heart.  First we must unite with other Star-Borne and merge together
    as One.  Thereby, we give birth to the heart of the Dove.  From the
    heart, the energy flows upwards and outwards, much like a fountain
    of Light, becoming ever larger as more of us unite.  Thus by coming
    together in increasing numbers, the entire body of the Dove is formed.

    Birdstar/Starbird

    The magnificent white bird of our Unified Presence takes the form of
    a birdstar as it flies through the Doorway of the 11:11 to Octave 7.
    In Octave 7 an inversion takes place for those who choose to travel
    onward.  The birdstar turns itself inside out and emerges as a
    starbird.  This starbird is the conveyance for those who wish to
    journey to Octave 11.

    First and Second Wave

    Prior to our descent into matter when each one of us chose our
    destiny pattern, we became aligned with either a first or second
    wave patterning.  The first wave beings chose to come to Earth in
    order to irrevocably anchor the New.  They are the ones who have
    experienced countless embodiments upon this planet, thus have been
    the holders of ancient wisdom.  Because of their long cycle of
    experience here, many of them are profoundly weary and longing to
    return home.

    The second wave's Purpose is to build on the New once it is firmly
    anchored.  They have had less earthly experience.  Second wavers are
    the visionaries, the architects, the ones with new forms of healing,
    music and community.  Bristling with energy to manifest, the second
    wavers have also been riddled with impatience to create!

    What has not been understood until now is that the New shall not be
    created within the old dimensional patterning.  It will manifest on
    the other side of the Doorway of the 11:11 in Octave 7.  Hence it is
    of utmost importance that first and second wavers unite together in
    order to open this doorway that we may move through into the new
    Divine Dispensation.

    Orion

    The constellation of Orion is of vast importance in our sacred quest
    for full remembrance since it is the master template of duality in
    this dimensional universe.  The three stars in the belt of Orion,
    what we call the EL*AN*RA (Mintaka, Al Nilam, Al Nitak in traditional
    astronomy), are the main control points or pins which hold our
    universe into position.  It is through the central star in Orion's
    belt, the Eye of AN,, that we shall travel as we make our journey
    through the Doorway of the 11:11.

    Orion is divided into three zones.  The upper zone is ruled by the
    star Betelgeuse.  Here are the Councils of Light.  The lower zone
    is controlled by the star Rigel and is the home of the Dark Lords.
    In the central portion of Orion is a Zone of Overlap which contains
    the EL*AN*RA.  This area could be referred to as the Great Light for
    it represents the sacred, alchemical union of dark and light into
    One.  It is served by Lord Metatron and the Council of the Elohim.

               \              /
        \            /
                 \    /\    /
                  \  /  \  /
                   \/    \/
                   /\    /\
                  /  \  /  \
                 /    \/    \
                /            \
               /              \

    Orion is like a large Antarion Conversion.  Within its Zone of Overlap,
    all dualities have merged into One.  Our present challenge is to create
    that Zone of Overlap within ourselves until we are irrevocably anchored
    into Oneness.

    Crop Circles

    For several years, mysterious flattened circles have been appearing in
    the fields of England.  Although scientists have tried to come up with
    logical explanations for this phenomena, such as random whirlwinds, the
    mystery remains unsolved.  What is known is that farmers often hear low
    humming sounds on the nights that they appear.  Another interesting
    fact is that the molecular structure of the crops within the circles
    have been deeply altered.

    Beginning in May 1990, the patterning of these crop circles has changed
    dramatically.  The designs have become more elaborate.  There are often
    multiple circles with formations like keys protruding from them.  Some
    of these new crop circles measure over 300 feet across.  When one enters
    into the patterning of the crop circles, a heightened energy is
    experienced.

    What is fascinating is that several of the new crop circle formations
    are now appearing in the shape of a dumbbell, often with one circle
    larger than the other.  And on either side of the line connecting the
    two circles are very large elevens, forming an 11:11.  This design
    brought to the planet from On High is showing our two spirals or
    Great Central Sun Systems connected by the Doorway of the 11:11.

    Other Manifestations of 11:11

    We have received word from all over the United States of the numbers
    11:11 appearing on television during regular programming at random
    times.  This is a further sign of the full activation of 11:11.

    How You Can Prepare Yourselves

    It is of utmost importance that you step into the full magnificence
    of your starry selves.  You can begin by cleaning out your lives,
    lovingly discarding any outmoded habits and thought forms which are
    rooted in the illusion of separation and denial.  Go though your
    closets, both literally and figuratively, and shed anything that no
    longer resonates with the Truth of your Being.  Simplify everything
    so it vibrates in accord with you and leaves you space for the
    introduction of the New.  Complete any unfinished business, any
    unresolved relationships, anything that holds you back, that keeps
    you smaller than you really are.

    Begin laying the foundations of the new by organizing your life into
    greater efficiency to support your Higher Self.  Make sure you take
    the time to nourish yourself, to be silent, and to listen to the
    transmissions you are or will soon be receiving.  Join with others
    who support your continuing growth.  Make time for relaxation and
    play, for this facilitates integration of the incoming accelerated
    frequencies.

    Clear up any fears you may have around the issue of power.  We have
    misused power at one time or another.  It was simply part of the
    full third dimensional experience.  Set aside your guilt and forgive
    yourself for any previous transgressions.  As you remember who you
    are and begin to anchor your Higher Self into your physical body,
    your ego will become smaller and smaller.  Your vast, starry
    overself containing unlimited amounts of love and wisdom will begin
    to see through your eyes, think through your mind, etc. - thus
    transforming everything!  Then, please, bring forth the courage to
    openly be your empowered magnificent Selves!

    Focus on the whole instead of the fragments of the whole.  See all
    of humanity as one vast starry being, held together by love.
    Contact your Golden Solar Angel.  Bring it in and embody it in
    your everyday life.  Knowing that you are an Angel consciously
    serving on Earth definitely lightens your burdens and clears your
    path.  Remember that you are no longer alone; there are millions
    of us here.

    Ask for your Angelic or Starry name, and once you receive it, begin
    to use it.  These names are triggers which aid in our transformational
    process, dissolving the old third dimensional patternings within our
    beings and aligning us to the New.  They are one of the most powerful
    tools presently available.  Your Angelic, Starry name is *your* name,
    *your* personal resonance, the unique vibration of your ray of the
    star of One.  It opens up and strengthens your pathway Homeward.

    How You Can Help

    Due to the scope of this mass activation of the Star-Borne to open
    the Doorway of the 11:11, we need your fullest help and support.
    There are many ways in which you can serve.

    . Network this information - ...pass it along to as many people
      as you can.  Give it to bookstores, healers and centers where
      it can reach many.

    . Send us the names and addresses of bookstores and centers in
          your area, so we can add them to our mailing list and send
          them further updates.

        . Form local groups to prepare together and send us the name and
      address of a key person in your group so we can keep in touch

    . Read Solara's books, especially "The Star-Borne" and start
      working with the processes.

     . Support Star-Borne Unlimited with donations.  As the countdown
      to January 11, 1992 unfolds, we will be stretching our resources
      beyond their limits.  We will need funds to expand our offices,
      pay more helpers, get new phone lines, make instructional videos,
      and to print and distribute information on the 11:11 worldwide.

    . Star-Borne also needs some skilled, balanced helpers - people
          with experience in computers, office procedures, graphics,
      desktop publishing and video making.  (At this stage, you will
      also need to be self-supporting and able to provide for your
      living expenses).

    . Start plastering the planet with bumper stickers, T-shirts, etc.
      which say 11:11 so its triggering mechanization can be fully
      activated into the mass consciousness.

        . Produce events in your area to disseminate information on the
          11:11 to the public.

    . Volunteer to be the 11:11 Anchor for your area.

    11:11 Anchors

    11:11 Anchors are needed throughout the planet.  Ideally we should
    have anchors within each city, town, and country.  These are the
    main functions of 11:11 Anchors..

    1. Be the coordinator of 11:11 information in your area.

    2. Bring together a group of people who can begin preparing
           themselves for their part in opening the door.


    A Directive on the New:

    Create the key in geometric patterning of overlapping triangles
    within triangles.  This the door opens and the new spiral is
    made visible.

    The New cannot be found within the old patterning nor upon the
    old spiral.  A shift in spirals is necessary here.

    You have reached the culmination/completion of the old spiral.
    Now you must make the shift.  This entails a leap across the
    abyss which shall launch you into the New.

    This abyss, which represents the gap between the known and
    unknown, the visible and the invisible, is different from any
    abyss that you have previously experienced.  All bonds within
    the third dimensional patterning of duality must be loosened
    in order to free yourself to make this leap.  You must obtain
    a true lightness of being.

    This does not mean that you shall be unable to function within
    the world.  However, be prepared to experience the world
    differently than before.  Much of what you have known and held
    sacred shall fall away as irrelevant and unimportant.  You will
    willingly release old habits, conditionings, preferences and
    desires as their sense of appropriateness diminishes.

    At the same time, you will experience an increasing sense of
    ease as the New ushers in a beautiful octave of abundance, purity,
    sureness of Purpose, power and freshness.  All weariness will drop
    away as you make this shift into the Greater Reality.

    The new spiral stands before you - shimmering with promise.  You
    can almost touch it, but if you did, your physical hand would pass
    right through it.  It is nearly invisible, so subtle, yet stronger
    than anything existing within the world of matter.

    You are Called forth to make this leap into the Unknown, into the
    New, for all else has reached the point of completion


    For anyone who would like further information regarding 11:11 you
    can write to:


        Star-Borne Unlimited
        Route 7 Box 191B
        Charlottesville, VA  22901

        or call   804-974-7771

        =======================================================
Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news
From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 20:02:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Evans & Sutherland
Lines: 12
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 11 Nov 1991 02:35:28 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (tony) writes:
> >    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
> >when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
> >hoax.
>
> Well, I had heard no such thing

    Niether have I, but I have seen the photomicrographs that clearly show the
granules of red ochre pigment with which the shroud (and hundreds of other
very similar shrouds) was painted.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!pacdata!johnr
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 21:41:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (John Reed)
Organization: Pacific Data Products
Lines: 32


About a week ago I posted, and asked for more information concerning
the story about the dracos.  One of my questions concerned the
asteroid that the dracos are supposedly using in their trip to
earth.

I received the following response via E-mail from an Aussie.


>Astronomers have located a large asteroid. They also reported that it
>exhibited 'jet' like propulsion, this was written off as gasses in the
>asteroid escaping and thus producing the observed effect.
>
>The asteroid is inside our solar system approaching the sun, if I remember
>correctly will pass through the Earth's orbit.


Once again, this raises more questions than it answers for me.
Can anyone provide additional references to this story?
Thanks.

JR
--


   /------------------------------------------------------------------\
  |  John Reed                           {ucsd,uunet}!pacdata!johnr    |
  |  Pacific Data Products               [e-mail]   |
  |                    ---------------------                           |
  |     Interest on the Federal debt is now at about $1 billion per    |
  |     day and growing.             --From: CNN Crossfire--           |
   \------------------------------------------------------------------/
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!dhaley
From: [e-mail] (dhaley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 23:16:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia
Lines: 5

DNA test would soon show what sort of organism it is, or at least its closest
relatives. It's probably a mutilated and half decomposed Octopus or something.

Oh no. I haven't heard about it, maybe it is a conspiracy, the octopuses are
taking over the world. Beware.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 02:47:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
 (Gary Stollman) writes:
> >
> Everywhere I would go to try to get a job, my enemies would follow
> me.  I attended Tallahassee Community College in 1981, in order to
> complete my AA degree.  Some strange things started happening, and
> I suspected that my enemies or the CIA or FBI or "someone" was
> in my classes for the purpose of watching me.


Lots of paranoia deleted ......


> I will follow with information on exactly how and when I knew that
> my parents had been cloned, and more on how I was forced illegally
> into mental hospitals against my will.  Take care, fellow humans!!
>

Garry , what is an AA degree?  - Alt Aliens?
                 Alcoholics Anonymous?
                 All American?
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 01:50:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 108
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2957 talk.religion.newage:7655 alt.slack:1678

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Huzrei M. Isa) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Reed) writes:
>>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>>>
>>>            ( Future Shock or Is the Rest of The World Digging In? )
>>>
>>>             The  asteroid  is just off of Pluto and large  shuttles  are
>>>        descending and landing in many locations  on Earth.  These  craft
>>
>>- Who is the source of this information, and how reputable are they?
>
>I believe the orvotron newsletter got its information from a channeler.
>If so, then there is no way to tell how much truth is contained in this
>information except to wait and see...

Rather than _assume_ that it's channelled information why don't you
take the bull by the horns and either write him or call his BBS?

One of the reasons I post so much stuff on UFO's,etc is to encourage
everyone who reads the postings to do some research on your own. I
know it's great fun for many people out in Netland to ridicule yet-another
UFO posting by Don Allen and I'm more than sure that I've provided
many chuckles and guffaws to the world at large and that's fine by me...

However, the "hidden agenda" here is to hopefully provoke some of you
into taking your own initiative and find out for yourself. Realize that
the field of UFOlogy encompasses everything from the straight nuts and
bolts cases (Roswell,Bentwaters,etc) to the VERY far-out fringe (Dracos
eating humans,Underground ET bases). For the "newbie" or lurkers on
the Net, it presents a bewildering picture. The issue is NO longer
"are there UFO's visiting the planet"...but is more "WHO is visiting
the planet and what are their intentions...what are they doing?"

Channelling is usually shunned by the "nuts and bolts" types who are
more intent on finding/locating physical PROOF of visitation..whereas
there are quite a few groups/individuals who are _differently_ oriented
towards CONTACT and information gleaned from such sources. Both types
have skimishes from time to time because their motivations are different.

This doesn't make either of the groups right or wrong..it just points out
the differences in this field. Contrary to "conventional wisdom", there
are wide divergences in belief and opinion in many of the various UFO
organizations/groups.

I have tried to portray a wide range of the available information in
the last several months and allow you the reader to make up your own
mind and draw your own conclusions. Yes, there ARE quite a few postings
about the GREYS and the DRACO type aliens...there ARE quite a few postings
about abductions and visitations. This is because there ARE alot of
these type sightings and contacts. Collectively in the last few
years we know actually very LITTLE about the different types of alien
races visiting the planet other than the horror stories involving
the _negetive_ aspects of the Greys and the Lizard types...and that
is coached in terms of mutilations of animals, FORCED abductions of
humans, "alien babies" (go ahead and laugh but do your research)
examinations of humans by the "little greys",etc..these testimonials
by people who have experienced these things would seem to indicate
a destructiveness and callous regard towards humans. Some would
call these beings demonic...

On the other end of the spectrum is the type of "alien" (extraterrestrial)
is perhaps a more appropriate term to describe them; a humanoid type
that looks like WE humans. These are usually called "Blondes" or "nordics"
etc...these types are more often associated with the "Space Brothers",
truly benevolent ET's who DON'T abduct humans or perform bizarre
genetic experiments on them. Examples of these types would be the
beings involved in the Billy Meier case (Asket,Semjase)...Valiant Thor
or Val Thor as he's often known as,etc..some would call these types
angels..

_My_ research indicates that we are being visited by MORE of the Greys
than we are of the "good" ET's...I don't know why this is..perhaps
the "good ET's" are under some sort of "Prime directive" or whatever
I don't know....maybe there is some truth to the subject of the Govt
having made agrrements with the "bad aliens" and possibly part of that
agreement might have to do with the planned suppression of the knowledge
of the "good ET's"...I will leave this for you to ponder and study..


>
>>- Is this just another dis-information thing from the CIA?
>>JR
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure it is not from the CIA...  ;-)
>
>-=:[ Huzrei ]:=-

I seem to recall a JANAP directive that bars any military personnel
from discussion of "inside knowledge" without sufferring the loss
of their retirement/pension benefits,a $10,000 fine and 10 years
in jail..under those circumstances, it's no small wonder why more
military or retired military aren't eager to discuss the subject
candidly. As for Dis-info...the field is littered with mines..be
careful where you step.

Besides, it isn't the CIA as much as it is the NSA and MJ-12
that you need to watch :-)

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!bluemoon!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 00:19:09 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS Login)
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Lines: 12

Hello!  I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my
other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is??
I am new to this, although I have (as I have said) quite a bit of
experience on the old Arpanet.  You can mail to me here as well in case
you wish to ask me anything.  I am getting back on PC-Pursuit soon, and
will be able to cruise then...This bbs has a lot more access to stuff...

     Gary Stollman (not kidding about all this)

 This is from
     [e-mail]
who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yet
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 05:24:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Sara J Cupps) writes:
>Walter Pullen writes...
>>Note that our ordinary physical motions can't hurt the
>>astral objects - waving your hands around the TV set won't hurt the
>>image. They are both different worlds.
>I don't know about that.  I always get better reception when I put my hands
>near the TV.  Radio, too.
>Just a small note.

    And one with a lot of basis in fact (some people interfere with tv/
radio reception); the human body can, and often does, act as an antenna for
radio-spectrum transmissions.

    The note about "astral plane" residence of UFOs is cute, but the
problem with such explanations of venusians Et Al is (1) it violates
Occam's Razor. Rather than trying to work with the known and try to find
a simple explanation, you are postulating an entirely different set of
physical laws, rather than trying to just add one or two new ones (for
example, a much easier explanation for those "impossible" maneuvers that
UFOs are known to exhibit [mine did a constant 1/2 degree circle and then
suddenly accelerated at an incredible pace straight up] is that they have
much better antiacceleration gear).
    (2) This "astral residence" of the venusians still doesn't explain how
or why they would ever intersect with our way of life or have anything even
remotely in common with us. We have virtually nothing in common with fish,
and we still can't be sure if dolphins are intelligent or not.. and that's
only a difference of the density of the medium we inhabit, not a matter of
whether we are in different dimensions. (The "vibrational" buzzword is
meaningless, akin to the old "Flash" comics where the Flash would pass through
solids by vibrating in some ultrafast way).

    Redheaded Goddess, it's all fine and good to say that you can
sense all these things that can't be comprehended... but I am open minded,
NOT credulous. If it exists, it can be measured in some way or another.
If not now, then later.

    (note: most "OOBE" experiences I have read of sound like either
wishful thinking or simple dreams.)

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

"A mind can be open and still retain a screen door to keep the bugs
from getting in." -- Jason Wood
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande
From: [e-mail] (erin s anderson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 07:30:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: Erin -
Organization: Indiana University
Lines: 24
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17485 alt.paranormal:3629 alt.alien.visitors:2960 talk.religion.newage:7660
Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (erin s anderson) writes:
>
>>I agree
>>that the Quantum theory is quite the harsh blow to God.
>
>What I meant to say was, I DON'T think Quantum theory is a blow to God at all.
>Because a) one major attribute of God is that He can break the rules, and
>b) I don't understand quantum theory that much. :-)
>
>I would think that whether or not a quantum uncertainty is KNOWN depends on
>who knows it, and what he does.  If, at the end of the Schrodinger's Cat
>experiment (yes I know it's just a metaphor, nobody actually ever did it),
>the first scientist to arrive on the scene checks the cat (and if it's alive,
>he removes the poison or whatever, so the result won't change when the other
>scientists get there), then jumps out the window and falls thirty stories to
>his death, without recording whether the cat is alive or dead... is the result
>really "known"?  Is the cat STILL sorta-alive-sorta-dead until the scientists
>get there?  I would think so.

    I meant it would be a blow to God in the people's eyes who
follow them.  But I do agree (and find amusment) with your statement.

                                Erin -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: 11:11
Keywords: 11:11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 08:24:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: Zontar, Peoples' Commissar, Interstellar Proletarian Peoples' Collective
Organization: Interstellar Proletarian Peoples' Collective
Lines: 92
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2961 alt.paranormal:3630

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>
>This article was posted earlier this year to the net. It being 11-11
>today (and as I post this, it is also 11:11.11am local time) I figured
>this would be an appropriate time for this message from Solara, a
>great angel from the Central Sun, to be once again shared:
>
>    =======================================================
>            The Next Major Planetary Activation
>
>                11:11    January 11, 1992
>
>    11:11 is a pre-encoded trigger placed within our cellular memory
>    banks prior to our descent into matter which, when activated,
>    signifies that our time of completion is near.
>
>    The 11:11 is hereby being activated....
>
>    The Call To Activation
>
>    Here we stand in the midst of great changes.  The survival of planet
>    Earth and all of its inhabitants is now on the line.  We are constantly
>    being pulled back and forth between an ingoing and an outgoing tide.
>    This is causing turmoil, confusion and fear.  The outgoing tide is
>    composed of the third and fourth dimensional energies of duality and
>    separation which are in the process of being removed from our sphere.
>    Hence their final battle for supremacy and control is now taking place.

This channel speaks of the ongoing revolutionary struggle between the forces
of the Interstellar Proletariat and the counterrevolutionary running dogs
of the Reticulan Bourgeousie.  Forsake not the true path of interstellar
revolution, proletarian Earth brothers!

>    [...]
>
>    Whenever you begin to get drawn into the outgoing illusions, simply
>    pause, realign your being and quietly state that you do not accept
>    this reality.  Remain focused on the great awakening currently taking
>    place on Earth, remember who you really are and see the Doorway of the
>    11:11 open and this activated Arc of Light serving as our bridge to
>    the new Divine Dispensation which contains New Octaves of harmony,
>    peace and Oneness.
>
>    This anchoring of your being into the Greater Reality is crucial to the
>    fulfillment of the Divine Plan on Earth.  Your total commitment is
>    needed now!

Reject this cynical call to submit to the capitalist schemes of the forces
of Reticulan imperialism!  Now is the time to strike a decisive blow for
interstellar proletarian solidarity, Earth brothers!

>    [...]
>
>    Together we have much to accomplish.  What we are being called to
>    achieve is of a scope far greater than anything we can presently
>    imagine.  The Earth herself, is nearing her time of graduation from
>    the third dimensional patterning and, she who has succored our needs
>    for so long, now needs our help to birth her into a New Octave of
>    Oneness.  And by serving as Earth's midwives we, *the awakened
>    humanity of Earth*, also birth ourselves onto a new spiral of
>    evolution.

Again the siren song of the cosmopolite Reticulan oppressors sounds!  Let
the armor of true proletarian consciousness protect you from the evil
machinations of the enemies of the Interstellar Proletariat!

>    [...]
>
>    The new spiral stands before you - shimmering with promise.  You
>    can almost touch it, but if you did, your physical hand would pass
>    right through it.  It is nearly invisible, so subtle, yet stronger
>    than anything existing within the world of matter.
>
>    You are Called forth to make this leap into the Unknown, into the
>    New, for all else has reached the point of completion

People of Earth, the decisive moment is at hand!  Will you surrender to the
empty promises of the Reticulan bourgeoisie and their fraudulent "Call to
Activation", or will you continue to stride down the true path of interstellar
proletarian revolution?

Throw off the chains of capitalist bondage!  The Shining Path of Continuing
Revolution will inevitably lead the working peoples of the Earth to the
true socialist workers' paradise!  Crush the fascist insects of the
cynical Reticulan ruling clique and their cosmopolite mouthpieces, the evil
Gang of Four!  Follow the revolutionary teachings of the Dear Leader,
Chairman G'Haanin!  Continue the struggle against the counterrevolutionary
ravings of the so-called Arc of Light, and the people of Earth will march
to proletarian victory over the forces of interstellar imperialism!

Yours in revolutionary solidarity,
Zontar, Peoples' Commissar, Interstellar Proletarian Peoples' Collective
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!ia80024
From: [e-mail] (Nicholas C. Hester)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 22:52:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <#csd40=@lynx.unm.edu> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>        Hmmm.  I just don't believe that every lunatic with weird fantasies
>should be given airtime.  Do you?

Why not?  You've posted.

__

 Nicholas C. Hester
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 11: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 11:12:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
    [etc. etc.]
>
>     fragments must be placed together in order for the door to open.  The
>     sharing of our individual pieces of the key shall occur worldwide,
>     beginning at the New Moon of January 4, 1992 which occurs at 11:11 PM
>     and culminates on January 11, 1992.
>     [etc. etc.]

    Is that GMT, EST or what?

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 11:16:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Nicholas C. Hester) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>>
>>        Hmmm.  I just don't believe that every lunatic with weird fantasies
>>should be given airtime.  Do you?
>
> Why not?  You've posted.
>
> __
>
>  Nicholas C. Hester
> [e-mail]
> [e-mail]

    No, that was another of my clones.          :-)

Jason
[e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!jle
From: [e-mail] (Jer/ Eberhard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Nov 91 15:52:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Lines: 13

> How about a less hysterical phrase, like "have yet to identify"?
> It will probably turn out to be something quite mundane, like
> those mysterious blobs of green ice, which turned out to be
> airliner toilet flushings.  If it is something mundane, it won't
> rate a followup report, and thus will fuel conspiracy theories
> about a government cover-up.

Green ice?  The chemical in airliners is blue...  it makes blue ice when
the valve isn't closed tightly.

Jer/ Eberhard, (SLASH), HAM = N0FZD     | Hewlett-Packard - MS99, 1UP10,15'East
Pilot: COMM, INST, CFI-Airplane & Glider| 3404 East Harmony Road [phone]
EMAIL:  [e-mail]                | Fort Collins, Colorado  80525-9599
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part i
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 12:30:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 39

Ryk Spoor goes on to discount Walter Pullen's statements/ideas
about astral life on Venus, etc:

Ryk:

What is "Occam's Razor"?

WHO is Jason Wood?

Ryk, I can just see you running around trying to measure the spiritual
heart with your intellect.  Methinks it does not work this way.

Regarding your inquiry as to WHY a Venusian, or a life form from
Venus would  intersect with our life?", etc:  All life is one.
To think you are separate from other life forms is the delusion.
There is NO separation.  Perhaps it is for the purpose of Creation/
Evolution.  Do not be so self-centered to think that there is no
purpose to any other life form other than yours, in the human body!

This really makes me smile!!

As far as your quote the other day regarding reason, I have one
back for you:

"Reason is the master of the unbeliever, and the servant of the
believer."  --Hazrat Inayat Khan

And here's another one, which I like quite well, regarding science:
"..science in its full rise will some day be completed by mysticism."
   --letter written by Hazrat Inayat Khan to Luther Burbank.  Have
     you heard of Burbank, Ryk?  He was a great horticulturist who
     treated plants as living beings, spoke to them, and they spoke
     to him (yes, a mystic can communicate, via his being, to ALL
     living beings!)

Maybe you were given the "experience" of a UFO to precisely set
you on your soul's path of inquiry into the true nature of things.

Kathy
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill
From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 12:50:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu


|> >The asteroid is inside our solar system approaching the sun, if I remember
|> >correctly will pass through the Earth's orbit.

When??  I don't know anything about passengers, but an asteroid in an orbit
that results in its return only after a long long time has been blamed for
a lot of trouble here on earth, including the demise of the dinosaur.  I would
be very interested in comparing it's projected arrival date to other predictions
that have been made.

bill

--

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     [e-mail]   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     [e-mail]    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part i
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 14:54:25 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor goes on to discount Walter Pullen's statements/ideas
>about astral life on Venus, etc:
>Ryk:
>What is "Occam's Razor"?

    A principle, first stated by William of Occam, that deals with the
best ways to approach solving a problem: the best statement of it in layman's
terms is, "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one". A more
accurate statement of Occam's Razor is, "Given more than one explanation for
a set of circumstances, all other things remaining equal, then the simplest
explanation should be chosen."
    For example, we have established that there is something called gravity
which makes things fall when we release them here on earth. Now, you COULD
postulate that there are actually many invisible undetectable demons around
who grab everything that we let go and pull it down, and who are already
pulling on us to make us feel heavy, but that complicates the explanation
unnecessarily. By Occam's Razor, therefore, we simply assume that gravity
is the field of force that it appears to be.

>WHO is Jason Wood?

    A character of mine; when I write with him, I sometimes come up
with some of my favorite sayings.

>Ryk, I can just see you running around trying to measure the spiritual
>heart with your intellect.  Methinks it does not work this way.

    Youthinks this. Ithinks I don't agree. You love popping in these
buzzwords: "spiritual heart". What is a spiritual heart. Oh "you can't
measure it". Why not? "Because there are some things you can't measure".
That's a circular argument.
    If you mean emotions and so on, psychology is making slow progress
in this area, as is AI. Trying to analyze the functions of the human mind
will take quite a while; it is far and away the most complex computer on
earth. (To put it in perspective, most experiments with neural nets [which
may operate more like the brain than conventional computer programs] use
perhaps one or two hundred neuron-units with maybe 50 interconnections, AT
MOST. In the brain, there are a trillion neurons with 10,000 interconnections
each; the number of combinations possible exceeds the number of elementary
particles in the universe... so it will be a while before we can replicate
it or fully understand it.)

>Regarding your inquiry as to WHY a Venusian, or a life form from
>Venus would  intersect with our life?", etc:  All life is one.
>To think you are separate from other life forms is the delusion.

    Depends on what you mean by "separate"; I can't live without other
life forms (or, at least, other former lifeforms, like this steak here).
But what you seem to be talking about is some mystical connection of all
life. That was Ben Kenobi talking about the Force in Star Wars. This
isn't Star Wars...

>"Reason is the master of the unbeliever, and the servant of the
>believer."  --Hazrat Inayat Khan

    "Someone who professes to believe in everything will find that
in the end they believe in nothing."

>And here's another one, which I like quite well, regarding science:
>"..science in its full rise will some day be completed by mysticism."
>   --letter written by Hazrat Inayat Khan to Luther Burbank.  Have
>     you heard of Burbank, Ryk?  He was a great horticulturist who
>     treated plants as living beings, spoke to them, and they spoke
>     to him (yes, a mystic can communicate, via his being, to ALL
>     living beings!)

    I was blissfully spared any information about Burbank talking to
plants. He grew a mean potato, though.

    "Facts, facts, FACTS! Never mind beliefs or opinions, WHAT ARE
THE FACTS?" -- Lazarus Long

>Maybe you were given the "experience" of a UFO to precisely set
>you on your soul's path of inquiry into the true nature of things.

    Maybe I was just fortunate enough to see something. I don't
believe that I was "given" the sight.

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

    "There's one born every minute -- make sure YOU aren't one."


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Pivarnik)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 11: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 12:53:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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EST is New York time, GMT is Greenwich, England some thing like 5 or 6
hours ahead of EST. So I guess if you're on that side of the Atlantic, you'll
be checking out a little sooner.
--
Greg

--  Be still, be silent...the rest is easy.  --
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: the asteroid
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 13:44:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>Astronomers have located a large asteroid. They also reported that it
>>exhibited 'jet' like propulsion, this was written off as gasses in the
>>asteroid escaping and thus producing the observed effect.
>>
>>The asteroid is inside our solar system approaching the sun, if I remember
>>correctly will pass through the Earth's orbit.
>
>
>Once again, this raises more questions than it answers for me.
>Can anyone provide additional references to this story?

        If I were you I would treat this report  as a crock since that is
        what it is.  This is tabloid fiction used to  entertain  the weak
        minded.

        Astroids  are  not  being  detected coming into out solar system.
        They for  one  are  too small.  Asteroids are not seen until they
        reach a point  where  the light reflected from them is sufficient
        to be detected which  puts  then  inside  the  orbit  of Jupiter.
        Apollo  asteroids  (earth  orbit  crossing)    are    usully  not
        seen/detected  until  they  are very close(500,000+  miles)  from
        earth.

        Steve


        Beware the Jub Jub Bird
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 13:54:29 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>Hello!  I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my
>other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is??
>I am new to this, although I have (as I have said) quite a bit of
>experience on the old Arpanet.  You can mail to me here as well in case
>you wish to ask me anything.  I am getting back on PC-Pursuit soon, and
>will be able to cruise then...This bbs has a lot more access to stuff...
>
>     Gary Stollman (not kidding about all this)

        Gary,

        I would  suggest  that  you try HaloParadol (sp).  This is a very
        strong drug that  will  shut  down  the  paranoia  that  you  are
        experiencing.  It will  also  quiet  the  voices you are probably
        hearing so you won't have anyone to talk to anymore.

        Steve (not kidding about this either)

        "Beware the Jub Jub Bird"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jn1z+
From: [e-mail] (John William Nicol)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 16:27:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
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In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>


>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Josh N. Vander Berg) writes:
>#In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (tony) >writes:
>#>    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
>#>when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of
>Turin was a
>#>hoax.
>#
>#Well, I had heard no such thing, I heard that they had tested a piece
of >#cloth
>#that had been attached to the shroud for the purpose of carrying the >#shroud
>#without damaging it.  This piece of cloth could have easily been put
on >#the shroud in the middle ages, even though the shroud was of an
earlier >#origin.  I believe that it is a hoax, but it has not been
PROVEN to be such >#by atomic dating methods.

>This is incorrect. From the article that reported the
>results of the [14]C dating [P.E. Damon et al, 'Radiocarbon
>Dating of the Shroud of Turin', _Nature_ 337, 611-615
>(Feb. 16, 1989). Top of p. 612.]

  >"The shroud was separated from the backing cloth
  >along its bottom left-hand edge and a strip
  >(~ 10 mm x 70 mm) was cut from just above the place
  >where a sample was previously removed in 1973 for
  >examination. The strip came from a single site
  >_on the main body of the shroud_ away from any
  >patches or charred areas." [emphasis added].

>This clearly indicates that the sample was taken
>from the shroud itself and not from the backing
>cloth.

>Bill


   Also, the shroud was not only tested by atomic dating.  By chemical
analysis, the 'blood' was found to be a coloring agent, used almost
exclusively in the Middle Ages.

John Nicol
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Major Havok)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: <None>
Message-ID: <1991Nov12.164744.27426@[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 16:47:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <1991Nov8.234443.22858@anasaz>
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>HEY YOU ALL OUT THERE
>LISTEN UP I GOT SOME SERIOUS
>QUESTIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR GOOD SERIOUS ANSWERS.
>
>WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NASA?

  I don't think about them really. I have no strong opinion about them. All
I can say really is that I believe that their current propulsion methods are
totally wrong. I sure as hell hope they are researching alternative methods
of space travel, conventional propulsion methods will be of little use to
us soon. Even fission/fussion propulsion will not be sufficient. There are
other methods of space travel, methods that will seemingly break the "speed
of light" barrier, I'm certain of it.

>WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PSI(E.S.P)

  I believe in the existance of psychic abilities and the human spirit. I
myself have psychic abilities. I occasionally have psychic dreams in which
future events are revealed to me (usually in some slightly cryptic form
though). The dreams are uncontrollable though, I don't know when they will
occur or when the contents of the dreams are actually events to come. Not
only do I believe in the existance of a human spirit that will last beyond
death due to personal psychic experiences, I also believe in it due to my
scientific beliefs. In science, the term "ether" is now obsolete, but for
the purposes of this discussion, I will use the term "ether". My concept
of an "ether" is a medium which governs the existance and behavior of matter
in this universe. The "shape" of the ether is unknown, if that term is even
applicable to the ether. The way I visualize the ether is a [infinite] set
of lines which are composed neither of matter, nor of what we conceive of
as empty space. The lines of the ether would have a tendancy to run straight
and unbending, only under certain influences would the lines bend. These
influences would be gravitation, magnetism, and the presence of a spirit.
Thus my definition of a spirit is a sophisticated network of these lines.
This also links the possiblity for science and religion to coexist. One
could think of God as being a supreme mega-network of these lines, this does
not de-value or take away any substance of the thought of God. This
concept of God would allow God to exist eternally. These lines are are the
domain for the universe, but they do not necessarily go through a "big bang"
or a "big crunch" stage that matter does. Therefor a spirit could exist
in the "ether" independant of what matter in this universe does. The concept
that God is a super network of these lines shows that God is a concious
being and that he literally does control the behavior of the universe. By
being God, that means that you would have total concious control over every
particle in the universe since every particle in the universe depends on the
etherial lines for their behavior and existance and these same lines may make
up the network of conciousness of God.
  We perceive the speed of light as a barrier because a photon is governed
by the existance of the ether, it must travel only along the lines of the
ether. But traveling to a remote point seemingly faster than the speed of
light would be possible by manipulating the lines of the ether. Gravity and
magnetism are examples of matter affecting etherial lines. That's all I'll
say for now on that particular subject. By the way, the term "ether" here
is used loosely, I do not know how else to refer to these lines. But I
am confident that they exist... even Albert Einstein believed that space
was curved, which implies that space has a property to it, which in turn
means that space is not empty (by not being empty I do not mean that it
is full of dust and high energy particles).
  By the way, coincidentally, aliens (which race I am not certain of,
perhaps the Zeta Greys ... if they exist that is) are said to believe
in God as being the universe.

>DO YOU HAVE PSI ABLITY

  As stated above, I do have psychic dreams occasionally, but I do not
want to be labeled as being a psychic since I do not have any apparent
control over the dreams.

>HOW WOULD YOU GET TO THE MOON?

  Do you mean if the technology were available? If so then based on my views
as mentioned above (if they are correct) then I would manipulate the
"etherial lines" to reduce the distance to the moon. However, assuming that
that were to become possible, reducing the distance between two heavenly
bodies from and directly to the surfaces of each object could be an extremely
dangerous move, doing so would cause unnatural gravitational distortions
on both bodies and might possibly shift the orbits of the objects as well
as having various other effects. A "stargate" would be more appropriate...
meaning that you would travel a considerable distance from a heavenly body
before bending space. A "stargate" to the moon wouldn't seem practical though,
in order for a so called stargate to work, you would probably need to be
millions of miles away from your point of origin and your destination.

>THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR ANYBODY IN ANY NEWSGROUP. WE ARE SERIOUS
>ABOUT LEAVING EARTH AND STARTING A NEW COLONY THERE
>WE HAVE ONE POSSIBLE ENGINE DESIGN BUT WE NEED THE HELP OF OTHERS
>WHO FEEL AS WE DO. WE IS GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT LIFE ON EARTH IS JUST
>GETTING TO RIDICULOUS AND FEELTHIS,
>ARE YOU AS DISGUSTED WITH NASA AS WE ARE? HELP US TO THE MOON

  Although it would be nice to escape the chaos and insanity here on Earth,
I would probably stay here on Earth if given the choice. Besides moving
to Luna does not sound very practical. Even if we currently had the means
to get their, we would need to adapt it to support life. Even if that was
within our ability, I think Mars would be a more suitable place, it is closer
to Earths gravitational strength than the moon and therefor better equiped
to support life from Earth and an atmosphere similar to Earths. Also the time
it take for Mars to orbit the sun is fairly clse to the time it takes for
Earth to do so, and a day on Mars is about as long as a day on Earth.

  Much of the information in the article has been discussed before and
a few people have expressed their extreme disagreement with my views. If
you have already contacted me about your disagreement with my views, then
please hold off on flaming me, otherwise replies are welcome. I do not
guarantee that any of the information above is accurate or factual.
--
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Chris Wood                |  "If you can't convince them, confuse them." |
| [e-mail]  |                                   -unknown   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!noao!arizona!arizona.edu!soliton!npc
From: [e-mail] (Nick Christenson, University of Arizona)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:25:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson AZ
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>However, the "hidden agenda" here is to hopefully provoke some of you
>into taking your own initiative and find out for yourself. Realize that
>the field of UFOlogy encompasses everything from the straight nuts and
>bolts cases (Roswell,Bentwaters,etc) to the VERY far-out fringe (Dracos
>eating humans,Underground ET bases). For the "newbie" or lurkers on
>the Net, it presents a bewildering picture. The issue is NO longer
>"are there UFO's visiting the planet"...but is more "WHO is visiting
>the planet and what are their intentions...what are they doing?"

The only "WHO" are the Xists, and you can't possibly detect them at your
feeble stage of enlightenment.

>Channelling is usually shunned by the "nuts and bolts" types who are
>more intent on finding/locating physical PROOF of visitation.

Channelling is a poor alternative to "Whiff-reading."  Concentrate on
attaining the status of Overman first, finding the Xists second.  Time
is running out... .

>Both types
>have skimishes from time to time because their motivations are different.

Pursuit of false slack.

>This doesn't make either of the groups right or wrong..it just points out
>the differences in this field. Contrary to "conventional wisdom", there
>are wide divergences in belief and opinion in many of the various UFO
>organizations/groups.

True, it makes them both wrong.  All hail Bob.

>I have tried to portray a wide range of the available information in
>the last several months and allow you the reader to make up your own
>mind and draw your own conclusions.

You provide a wide range of available information but all of it is WRONG!
You are letting the Conspiracy pull the wool over your eyes.  You must
beat them to the punch, pink boy.

>_My_ research indicates that we are being visited by MORE of the Greys
>than we are of the "good" ET's...I don't know why this is..perhaps
>the "good ET's" are under some sort of "Prime directive" or whatever
>I don't know....maybe there is some truth to the subject of the Govt
>having made agrrements with the "bad aliens" and possibly part of that
>agreement might have to do with the planned suppression of the knowledge
>of the "good ET's"...I will leave this for you to ponder and study..

There are no "good" E.T.'s, and the bad ones have not yet manifested
themselves in any form you can detect until you have cleared the sinuses
of your Third Nostril.

Note, in accordance with the principles of the SubGenius, I can not give
information that can lead to the acquisition of slack for free.  So, everyone
who reads this has to send me $30.  Beware, the Time and Half Time approaches!
That is all.

Oh, if you don't want to hear this on your newsgroup, don't crosspost to
alt.slack.


Nick Christenson
[e-mail]
#include <disclaimer.h>
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!censor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Nov 91 19:20:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>>
>>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>>religion is the study of everything else.
>>>
>>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and
>>art (the study of everything else).
>
>Oh, please.  I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks
>that fanatically religious people have caused.  Both science and religion
>are searches for truth.  Science searches for what is true about this physical
>universe.
> Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical
>one.

worlds OTHER than the physical one? you mean fantasy worlds. Yes religeon
is about escaping from reality to find the inner truths of ones fantasies.

> They really shouldn't interfere with each other.  And if the religious
>fanatics insist that something in this universe MUST be such-and-such a way,
>they should just let the scientists discover it for themselves.  And if the
>scientists discover that the religious fanatics are wrong, the fanatics should
>shut up.
>

No but you forget religeon keeps poking its nose into the real world. It
talks of Creation,Noas Ark, Heaven Hell. These are all things purlorted to
really exist. The bible is taken as TRUTH but the bible has myths whose
setting is the real physical world. Obviously this will clash with science.

>>>--E.V.L. ([e-mail])        #
>>>Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely    #
>>>devastatingly true, except the bits #
>>>that are lies."  --Douglas Adams    #

ALEX BUNKER
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm
From: [e-mail] (James W. Meritt)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:58:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Josh N. Vander Berg) writes:
}In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (tony) writes:
}>    A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up --
}>when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a
}>hoax.
}
}Well, I had heard no such thing, I heard that they had tested a piece of cloth
}that had been attached to the shroud for the purpose of carrying the shroud
}without damaging it.  This piece of cloth could have easily been put on the
}shroud in the middle ages, even though the shroud was of an earlier origin.  I
}believe that it is a hoax, but it has not been PROVEN to be such by atomic
}dating methods.

Church  official curbs plan to carbon-date Shroud of Turin. (archbishop
    of Turin)
 Hilts, Philip J.; Rensberger, Boyce
 Washington Post  v111 col 1 pA4 April 4, 1988
 SOURCE FILE: NNI File 111

Date  tests planned on Shroud of Turin. (linen believed by some to have
    been Jesus' burial cloth)
 Dart, John
 Los Angeles Times  v107 SECTION I col 5 p30 April 23, 1988
 SOURCE FILE: NNI File 111

SCIENCE AND THE SHROUD OF TURIN (PHOTOS; BIBLIOG; REPLY, L Y RAHMANI, P 197
FALL 80)
BORTIN, VIRGINIA
BIB ARCH,   43,  109-117,  SPR 1980
Language: English
Descriptors: HOLY SHROUD


                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: SATURDAY  October 7, 1989
 PAGE:   A22    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: OP/ED                                 LENGTH: MEDIUM
                           THE MYSTERY OF THE SHROUD
    In his letter " 'Science' and the Shroud" (Sept. 20), Alan E. Johnsrud
 states that it "is contrary to science to ignore plausible explanations in
 favor of the supernatural." He is correct, and the Catholic Church has never
 officially declared an event to be a miracle unless all plausible natural
 explanations have been ruled out. Regarding the Shroud of Turin, the church
 has not declared it to be of supernatural origin and has encouraged scientific
 investigation of the phenomena of the shroud.
    But Mr. Johnsrud and others who believe the shroud to be a medieval forgery
 have yet to provide plausible explanations for the anomalies of the shroud.
 How would a medieval forger know to put the nail wounds in the wrist, when all
 the iconography of the time showed the wounds in the palms? How would he have
 known that the crown of thorns was actually a cap, a fact of the shroud that
 was also contrary to popular belief? How clever to provide details that could
 be detected only with modern instruments, such as microscopic particles of
 dirt embedded in the image of the soles of the feet.
     Above all, what a genius he was to have developed a technique of
 transfering the image, which we cannot duplicate even today. He produced an
 image which is equivalent to a negative image on the shroud but which becomes
 a positive image in a negative photograph, though the bloodstains are the
 reverse: positive to the naked eye and negative in the photographic negative.
 The forgery Mr. Johnsrud describes could possibly explain the bloodstains, but
 it cannot explain the image itself.
     The true scientist does not deny the evidence of his senses. When faced
 with seemingly contradictory data-in this case, the results of the carbon-14
 tests and the unexplained phenomena described above-he continues his research
 in order to resolve the contradictions. He does not close his mind on the
 basis of a single piece of evidence.
     ANNE W. CARROLL
 Manassas
 In reference to Alan E. Johnsrud's commentary: while "blood flow" on the
 shroud contributes an interesting detail, there exist additional and more
 challenging phenomena.
     A few of these:

     the ability of the 14th century "forger" to anticipate the invention of
 photographic negatives (from which the best image is derived);
     his knowledge of microbotanic palinology, which caused the "forger" to
 include within the shroud pollen from first-century Palestine;
     his selection of a shroud physiognomy that contains 170 points of
 congruity with a Greek icon of Christ made in the sixth century;
     the "forger's" cleverness in placing coins on the deceased eyes, realizing
 that they would remain invisible until the advent of the NASA program's VP8
 Image Analyzer. There is evidence that one of the coins is a lepton, a "mite"
 coined by Pontius Pilate; and
     his foresight and ability to cause a dead 180-pound body to form an image
 having the same intensity on both the front and back so that later, in 1977,
 professors from the Academy of Aeronautics of Denver would theorize that the
 man in the shroud was in a state of weightlessness when energy, emanating from
 the body, scorched the cloth to form the image.
     This is not to question the carbon-14 dating. Many questions have been
 raised, however, about the cloth's exposure to smoke, water and other
 contaminants through the centuries.
    ANTHONY F. ATKINSON
 Martinsburg, W. Va.




                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: THURSDAY  September 28, 1989
 PAGE:   A30    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: OP/ED                                 LENGTH: SHORT
                       'SCIENCE' AND THE SHROUD (CONT'D.)



                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: WEDNESDAY September 20, 1989
 PAGE:   A24    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: OP/ED                                 LENGTH: SHORT
                            'SCIENCE' AND THE SHROUD



                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: SATURDAY  February 18, 1989
 PAGE:   C16    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: METRO                                 LENGTH: SHORT
                             SHROUD THEORY OFFERED



                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: SUNDAY    October 9, 1988
 PAGE:   D06    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: EDITORIAL                             LENGTH: SHORT
                            THE SHROUD FIXED IN TIME



                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: THURSDAY  September 29, 1988
 PAGE:   A07    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: FIRST SECTION                         LENGTH: MEDIUM
                 SHROUD OF TURIN*MADE IN 1300S, ANALYSIS FINDS
                   PRELATE'S SCIENCE ADVISER CONFIRMS REPORTS


                             THE WASHINGTON POST
 DATE: FRIDAY    October 14, 1988
 PAGE:   A03    EDITION: FINAL
 SECTION: FIRST SECTION                         LENGTH: SHORT
 PHOTO: By AFP
 SOURCE: Philip J. Hilts
 Washington Post Staff Writer
 MEMO:
   STORY-TYPE: NEWS FOREIGN

              TESTS FROM 3 LABS CONFIRM TURIN SHROUD NOT AUTHENTIC
                               CLOTH 700 YEARS OLD
                               IMAGE CREATED LATER

    Final results of the radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin*show that
 the cloth was made about 1280 A.D. and the image of a crucified man created on
 it after that, Cardinal Anastasio Ballestrero, Archbishop of Turin, announced
 yesterday.
    The cloth has been venerated for centuries as the burial sheet of Jesus
 despite 14th- and 15th-century records which indicated that the cloth was a
 fake. Millions of pilgrims filed past the cloth when it was last put on public
display in Turin 10 years ago.
    At a news conference in Turin, Ballestrero said the church has never
 claimed the shroud to be a holy relic. He added that although the date of the
 cloth is now known, the shroud will remain an object of veneration because the
 image on it is remarkable. The archbishop's scientific adviser said that no
 one knows how the image was made, adding that it is an important work of
 medieval Christian art.
    A faded, straw-colored image of the front and back of a crucified man is on
 the 14-by-3 1/2-foot winding sheet.
    Three laboratories in the United States, Britain and Switzerland
 simultaneously tested the cloth and their results were in close agreement. To
 a 95 percent certainty, the cloth was made between 1260 and 1380 A.D. There is
 a virtually 100 percent certainty that the cloth was made after 1200 A.D.
    The results showed that the most likely date that the flax was cut to make
 the linen in the cloth was about 1280 A.D.
    "This agrees very well with the historical story," said Paul Damon of the
 University of Arizona, who worked on the dating. Historians have said the
 shroud first appeared about 1353, when it was given by French knight Geoffroy
 de Charny as gift for the building of a new church in Lirey, France.
    The method used to date the cloth compares the amount of ordinary carbon in
 plants and other living things to the small amount of radioactive carbon-14
 they absorb while alive. The carbon-14 begins to decay as soon as the plant,
 in this case flax, dies. Scientists know how much carbon-14 should be present
 for given dates in the past.
    To check accuracy of the three labs' work, each was sent a centimeter-sized
 bit cut from the shroud and three other control samples, including a piece of
 cloth from Cleopatra's mummy, about the first century B.C.; a Nubian tomb
 cloth from the 11th century A.D., and a piece of ceremonial garb from St.
 Louis d'Anjou from the 14th century.
    Multiple tests of all the samples showed the labs' results "in very tight
 agreement," Damon said.
 CAPTION:  Cardinal Ballestrero, left, with adviser, Prof. Luigi Gonella,
 discusses findings.
 KEYWORDS:
   ORGANIZATION: shroud of turin*
   SUBJECT: Religious beliefs; Italy; Christianity; Time / History

ARIZONA SCIENTISTS ANNOUNCE  SHROUD* OF *TURIN* TEST RESULTS

DATE:  October 13, 1988       10:50 E.T.       WORD COUNT:  422

     TUCSON, Ariz.Oct. 13 /PRNewswire/ -- Scientists at the
University of Arizona (UA) who radiocarbon dated the  Shroud* of
 Turin*, believed by many to be the burial cloth of Christ, said
today their tests show the cloth is late 13th or 14th century.
The test results were made public by Cardinal Anastasio
Ballestrero, archbishop of  Turin* and pontifical custodian of the
 shroud*, in *Turin*, Italy, early this morning.
     A statistical analysis of data from the three laboratories
which conducted the experiment indicates that there is one chance
in 20 that the material of the  shroud* was fabricated before 1260
A.D., and essentially no possibility that it was made before 1200
A.D., the UA researchers said.
     "Our test results are quoted to within plus-or-minus 60
years at the 95 percent confidence level," said physicist Douglas
J. Donahue.  He and geoscientist Paul E. Damon direct the Arizona
Accelerator Facility for Radioisotope Analysis.  They and their
colleagues at the facility ran a series of radiocarbon dating
tests on a postage stamp-sized piece of the  shroud* and three
control swatches of aged linen using their facility's tandem
accelerator mass spectrometer.
     Damon and Donahue witnessed the cutting of the  shroud* in
 Turin* last April.  At that time, Cardinal Ballestrero sealed the
 shroud* pieces and control samples in stainless-steel containers
and presented them to scientists from the three participating
laboratories: the UA, England's Oxford University, and the ETH at
Zurich.  Michael Tite, research director of the British Museum
and overall coordinator and guarantor of the study, witnessed the
sealing of the samples into their containers.
     The UA scientists prepared eight tiny carbon targets from
the  shroud* sample.  They measured two targets on each of four
days: May 6, May 12, May 24, and June 2.  To ensure dating
accuracy, each measurement was taken using twice the number of
calibrating targets normally used.  They statistically averaged
the measurements and forwarded all their results to Tite at the
British Museum in London on June 14.
     Tite's laboratory averaged the final carbon-14 measurements
submitted by each of the three labs, then converted the compiled
measurement to a calendar date.  In August, he returned the
statistical analysis and calendar date to all three labs for
review.
     "The consistency between the UA test results and those of
the other laboratories was very good and gratifying," Donahue
said.
     After approval by all laboratories, a final report was sent
by special courier to  Turin*, where it was delivered Sept. 26.

CONTACT: Lori Stiles of the University of Arizona,


UPI:
  Even  as  researchers  reported "conclusive evidence" the Shroud of Turin
only  dates  back to the Middle Ages, another scientist charged that dating
tests did not consider possible radiation from Jesus's resurrection.


  Carbon-14  tests  prove  the  shroud of Turin, venerated for centuries as
Christ's  burial sheet, was woven only in the Middle Ages, church officials
said today.


  Laboratory  tests  show  the  shroud of Turin, venerated for centuries as
Christ's  burial  sheet,  was  woven in the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic
Church announced Thursday. But a church official said the cloth "remains an
object of worship."


  A London newspaper has said results of tests on the Shroud of Turin could
show  that  its shadowy image of Christ was a medieval fake forged sometime
between the years 1000 and 1500.


  A  London  newspaper  said  Sunday  the  results  of tests carried out in
laboratories in England, Switzerland and Arizona would show that the Shroud
of Turin depicting a shadowy image of Christ was a medieval fake.


Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization.  The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
    [e-mail] or [e-mail] or meritt%aplvm.BITNET
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is this alt.alien or alt.newage?
Message-ID: <1991Nov12.014817.13604@anasaz>
Date: 12 Nov 91 01:48:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (carol zarbock) writes:
]>I for one, am rather amazed at some of the discussions going
]>on here.  I am NOT a skeptic, mind you.
]>
]>But I'm beginning to wonder if this is alt.alien or
]>alt.newage?
]>
]>Regards,
]>Carol
Keep reading and you'll wonder if it's "alt.bozo" or "alt.crazy."  Some of
these folks don't have all their cups in the cupboard but it's kind of
hard to suggest a new news group.  What do we say - "we want the kooks to
go somewhere else so we can talk about the aliens who come to Earth?"

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 11:11 - alt.aliens.visitors S/N tends to zero.
Keywords: See ya January 12th.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 18:53:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Trough and Brew
Lines: 22
Originator: jcj@sun8d
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun8d

>From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen):

>"We hereby announce the next major planetary activation to take
>place on January 11, 1992. ...
>... Solara Antara Amaa-Ra who has long served as a messenger to humanity ...

And on and on and on.  As long as you have this lunatic fringe and con
artists associated with UFOs, can anyone wonder why few people take UFOlogy
seriously?

>. Support Star-Borne Unlimited with donations.  ...

>. Star-Borne also needs some skilled, balanced helpers ... (At
>  this stage, you will also need to be self-supporting ...)

Jimmy Swaggert could probably learn a few things from these jokers.
Hey Goddess, e-mail me your home machine!  All I see is cbnews; are you at
IH (IP, IX, IW) by any chance?  I'd like to (seriously) borrow a couple of
your books.  I promise I won't malign them in front of you.

--
                 [e-mail]
Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook
From: [e-mail] (Peter R. Cook)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:12:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 23


In article <[e-mail]>, KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes...
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>
>> I read COMMUNION and TRANSFORMATION over the summer.  COMMUNION was very good.
>> I found it to be very believable and, at times, terrifying.  TRANSFORMATION
>> was ridiculous.  After hearing about how his stereo talks to him and how
>> his publisher encountered aliens at the local B. Dalton, I was sure this guy
>> was ready for the loony-bin.  Are there any good articles in response to
>> these books, pro or con?

    Streiber is a farce and is in it strictly for the money. Read
    Budd Hopkins instead.

------++++++++++++---------------+++++++++++--------------+++++++++------------
Peter Cook                        Quoth the Raven, "Eat my
Digital Equipment Corporation                shorts, man!"
200 Forest street
Marlboro, MA. 01752        "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
508-467-6936            welcome to the 90's where the government's
Mystic Powers infoline:        your mother!" - Scatterbrain
508-562-9516
Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen
From: [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 11:11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:20:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington Computer Science
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Walter D. Pullen) writes:
>    [etc. etc.]
>>     fragments must be placed together in order for the door to open.  The
>>     sharing of our individual pieces of the key shall occur worldwide,
>>     beginning at the New Moon of January 4, 1992 which occurs at 11:11 PM
>>     and culminates on January 11, 1992.
>>     [etc. etc.]
>
>    Is that GMT, EST or what?
>
>Jason
>[e-mail]

The New Moon is at 11:11pm GMT Greenwich Mean time. The astrology
chart for Greenwich, Eng at this time is below: (Note that the
Sun/Moon conjunction includes Uranus only 4 minutes away.)

+-------<11>07Leo16----<10>01Can26-----<9>25Tau27-----------+
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
<12>07Vir15----|-----------------------------|-----25Ari14<8>
| Jup 14Vir35r |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
<1>01Lib07-----|                             |-----01Ari07<7>
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             |              |
<2>25Lib14-----|-----------------------------|-----07Pis15<6>
| Plu 22Sco13  | Ven 05Sag13  | Moo 13Cap51  | Nod 09Cap35r |
|              | Mer 23Sag02  | Sun 13Cap51  | Nep 16Cap22  |
|              | Mar 26Sag43  | Ura 13Cap55  |              |
|              |              | Sat 06Aqu18  |              |
+-----------25Sco27<3>-----01Cap26<4>-----07Aqu16<5>--------+

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ [e-mail] \  /  \  /  \  /
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans
From: [e-mail] (Santa Claus)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: X has trouble rendering
Summary: please buy him a C manual
Keywords: cylinder X c sun sparc
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 20:35:58 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
Lines: 16

My old chummy X the bodydigger is having serious trouble rendering.

He has been warned that if rendering has not been successful be Wednesday
morning he will have a high price to pay.

X has been in contact with me and required a shit hot C manual.

Any offers.

please send help to [e-mail] immediately.


The deadline draws closer.


Thanking you in advance.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver
From: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 23:05:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Lose)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (TRACY WARREN CARVER)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Lines: 45

>Sea Wasp goes on about "if it exists, it is provable"
>and also on about One Reality.
>
>I agree with you:  there is only ONE Reality.  But Reality is
>like a diamond, it has many facets.
>
>People like you who sneer and scoff at others (such as with
>your quote by "Maclainism", actually do yourself an injustice.
>You just show others your own judgmental, limited thinking.
>
>Try doing some work with energy, such as Therapeutic Touch (which
>I have been doing for years).  You might surprise yourself to
>find out yourself to be functioning on other levels of intuitive
>knowing, things that may "not" be provable to your intellect,
>but very much a fact that it is happening.  This has been my
>own experience and I found how I actually have levels of awareness
>that simply are not understandable to my human brain and are
>not provable.  Read the book Therapeutic Touch by Delores Krieger,
>R.N.
>
>Just because you can not prove it does not mean it does not exist.
>
>(And that's exactly how your postings come across:  close minded).
>
>Kathy
>

Think about perception - both of you seem to perceive each other
as being close minded.  Sea Wasp perceive's Kathy's posts as psycho-
babble.  When she rejects his scientifcally-oriented replies, and
he rejects her mentally-oriented replies, then they both develop a
perception as the other being close minded.

Seems rather ironic to me.

Anyway, I wonder if somebody could explain in a little bit more
detail how these different "vibrational planes" work.

As a side note, I think that if vibrational planers stopped saying
"vibrational" plane and just let it go as "different dimension", we'd
find their arguments more convincing.

BTW - what's an OOBE? Sincere question - I may have been having them
lately.

Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 23:46:07 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 31

Ryk Spoor (gee Ryk, I am beginning to feel as if I know you!)
writes something about "believe in nothing".

It is okay to believe in nothing.  If I remember correctly no-thing
is quite a spiritual concept and saying (I think) that THAT WHICH
IS in NOT one particular thing, or no one thing (or no-thing).  So
to believe in nothing may be quite something after all!!

You write, "This is not Star Wars"

I write:  How do you know?

(oh oh, I know, because no one has "proved" it to you yet, right?
If no one has not proved it to you, that must mean it does not
exist).  Oh ye of little faith....  :-)

As far as the term/word language/concept (yes words only are
symbols for something that lie BEYOND words) of "spiritual heart"..
read Hazrat Inayat Khan.  The spiritual heart is so large it
can encompass all...

That is probably why your intellect will never comprehend nor
contain it.

Kathy

"Filled with Brahman are the things we see...

 Filled with Brahman are the things we see not..."

    (from song "Filled With Brahman")
Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Nov 91 23:54:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <jan.688748978@afrodite>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 21
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17525 talk.religion.newage:7668 alt.atheism:17763 alt.alien.visitors:2984 alt.paranormal:3633

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>religion is the study of everything else.

[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles

In article <jan.688748978@afrodite> [e-mail] (Jan T}ngring) writes:
>To be more precise about how different disciplines relate to REALITY:
>Science deals with predictions of the behaviour of it.
>Engineering creates tools for shaping it at our will.
>Philosophy is about understanding it.
>Art is for experiencing it.
>Religion is for escaping it.

To be even more precise as to the terms:
Science is the quest for knowledge
Engineering is the practice of making engines
Philosophy is the quest for knowledge
Religion is something to soothe one's fear of death and irrelevance
Art is utter nonsense (except mine)
Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 00:59:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Distribution: usa
Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp.
Lines: 51
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 10 Nov 91 19:16:07 GMT

>>>>> On 10 Nov 91 19:16:07 GMT, [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor) said:

Ryk> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>I would heartily recommend you to read: "Joy's Way, A Map
>for the Transformation Journey" by W. Brugh Joy, M.D.
Ryk>     [...]
>important in this process.  In fact, I am now certain that
>absolutely no diaglogue or action is necessaryfor individuals to
>beheightened into expanded awareness when they are in the presence
>of such a teacher.  In a way unconscious to the seeker's awareness,
Ryk>     [lots of jargon like "awareness" "energy-field", etc.,
Ryk> deleted for brevity]

Ryk>     When W. Brugh Joy can instruct someone in a triple-bypass
Ryk> operation by just the presence of his personality, while speaking
Ryk> about a poker game or something, then I'll believe his fuzzy psychobabble.
Ryk> Until then, all that stuff he is saying in your lengthy quote is
Ryk> utterly meaningless. Can you MEASURE what he's saying? Can it be
Ryk> tested? Accuracy, reproducibility, analysis, this is science. Anything
Ryk> that can't meet those criteria is at best a guess, or an opinion, or
Ryk> at worst is unreason.

Ryk>                 Sea Wasp
Ryk>                   /^\
Ryk>                   ;;;

Ryk> "Light Unto Shadows."

Seawasp, you're assuming a lot about measurement.  There are items and
qualities that can be measured, but only via technological
instruments, such as RF field strength, etc.  These items cannot be
detected nor measured by the normal 5 senses we possess biologically.
At one time, your argument, as you've just stated it, could be applied
to EM spectrum, that only the wavelengths that are biologically
detected (ie light) actually exist.  Thus, 150 years ago, most of the
EM spectrum, using your own terms, would be religated to guess,
opinion, or unreason.  Such would, and should, under such
classification, lead to science totally ignoring this area, due to the
prejudiced view that if we can't measure it, it don't exist! (bad
grammar by design).  Thank goodness Tesla, Maxwell, Marconi, etc,
didn't think this way.  They were open to possibilities.  That's what
Kathy and Walter are talking about here, possibilities.  AND, if they
(or you or I) can experience these things, even if subjectively, then
more power to them (you,I).  Your statements would limit us to science
that we already know, and close the door to investigation of that
which is possible but as yet, still unproven.  Unfortunately, your
closed minded approach to phenomena and the physical universe in
general is a shared malaise.  I feel that it hinders science.  Too
bad.

Tom
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!kakadu9!carl
From: [e-mail] (Ivan the TERRIBLE)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 00:20:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <jan.688748978@afrodite> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
Lines: 33
Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17530 talk.religion.newage:7669 alt.atheism:17766 alt.alien.visitors:2986 alt.paranormal:3634

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark William Hopkins) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that
>>religion is the study of everything else.
>
>[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles
>
>In article <jan.688748978@afrodite> [e-mail] (Jan T}ngring) writes:
>>To be more precise about how different disciplines relate to REALITY:
>>Science deals with predictions of the behaviour of it.
>>Engineering creates tools for shaping it at our will.
>>Philosophy is about understanding it.
>>Art is for experiencing it.
>>Religion is for escaping it.
>
>To be even more precise as to the terms:
>Science is the quest for knowledge
>Engineering is the practice of making engines

engineering, from the latin....  Ingenuity,  or applied science.  Not much
to do with engines at all really...


>Philosophy is the quest for knowledge
>Religion is something to soothe one's fear of death and irrelevance
>Art is utter nonsense (except mine)


 Annal  Natrach, Usthvah Spethed,                        [e-mail]
 Dochoel Dienve                                   Chem Eng, uni of Melbourne

 Merlin, where are you?  Call your dragon, to weave a mist...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!samsung!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 00:47:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 72

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor (gee Ryk, I am beginning to feel as if I know you!)
>writes something about "believe in nothing".
>It is okay to believe in nothing.  If I remember correctly no-thing
>is quite a spiritual concept and saying (I think) that THAT WHICH
>IS in NOT one particular thing, or no one thing (or no-thing).  So
>to believe in nothing may be quite something after all!!


    It's also a rather useless "nothing" to believe in; if you don't
have some specifics that you accept and others you reject, how can you
even choose a direction to go?
    If you don't choose something to believe in, then what's the point of
your existence? Believing in anything that comes along, giving equal belief
to anything that you encounter, means that there IS no reality...

>You write, "This is not Star Wars"
>I write:  How do you know?

    Because then I could buy a blaster at the local gun shop,
buy passage to Alderaan (before the blowup) at the local spaceport,
and watch strange green wrinkled guys levitate X-wing fighters in
the Dagobah swamps.
    However, in actuality I'm limited to chemical-propellant weapons,
can't even buy passage to LEO (low earth orbit) at the local spaceport,
and the only time I can see levitation is with the assistance of special
effects technicians.

>(oh oh, I know, because no one has "proved" it to you yet, right?
>If no one has not proved it to you, that must mean it does not
>exist).  Oh ye of little faith....  :-)

    I think you mean, "if no one has proved it to you that must mean it
does not exist...";
    Not quite, no one has to prove to me that black holes exist; they
are consistent with what I know of the world, and at the moment it is not
relevant to my existence whether they do or do not. If it became important,
then I WOULD require evidence.
    The same goes for The Force. If this WAS Star Wars, Ben Kenobi
would have no problem proving it to me. "You believe in the Force."
"*I believe in the Force*"...

>As far as the term/word language/concept (yes words only are
>symbols for something that lie BEYOND words) of "spiritual heart"..
>read Hazrat Inayat Khan.  The spiritual heart is so large it
>can encompass all...

    Another lovely example of defining something without defining it
at all.

>That is probably why your intellect will never comprehend nor
>contain it.

    Perhaps MY mind can't comprehend it because it's a null symbol.
If you can't define in concrete terms what you are talking about, then
you're just making a noise. (or, in this case, just typing meaningless
symbols).

    It's like saying "Love" and then refusing to define what you mean
by it. Or like my trying to discuss an automobile without letting you know
what an automobile is.

                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;

" 'There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt
of in your philosophy', said Shakespeare; and he was right. But that
'philosophy' has found them, and will continue to find them.
"Meanwhile, those of the mystic traditions have found nothing new, nor
have they found how to prove those things they hold to, even though
they have had every opportunity to do so."
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:02:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan) writes:
>detected (ie light) actually exist.  Thus, 150 years ago, most of the
>EM spectrum, using your own terms, would be religated to guess,
>opinion, or unreason.  Such would, and should, under such

    BUZZ! The difference, my good man, is that any opinion on such
matters could be TESTED. If you were to postulate, 150 years ago, the
existence of such things, you could then have defined a set of conditions
which would demonstrate the existence of the things that you were
theorizing.

>grammar by design).  Thank goodness Tesla, Maxwell, Marconi, etc,
>didn't think this way.  They were open to possibilities.  That's what

    All three of the above, and other scientists who discovered
new things, did so by building on the known and noticing things that
were detectable in the real world. Each one came up with theoretical
models of the world which described the phenomena they were trying to
explain, and then they proceeded to TEST these phenomena. They would
not have tried to advance as science anything which they could not
either test or prove logically (Einstein's relativity was at first only
demonstrable in mathematical terms; but even here you have a form
of concreteness in that everyone can agree on what mathematics mean
and that they mean the same thing to all mathematicians).

>more power to them (you,I).  Your statements would limit us to science
>that we already know, and close the door to investigation of that
>which is possible but as yet, still unproven.  Unfortunately, your
>closed minded approach to phenomena and the physical universe in
>general is a shared malaise.  I feel that it hinders science.  Too
>bad.


    This is a common misconception of the scientific method. Science
is open to ANYTHING new; but for it to enter the realm of science it
must be stated in a way that is open for testing. If not now, then in
a forseeable future, and it must not conflict with known science, nor
require a too-drastic revision of the known UNLESS evidence can be
shown requiring that drastic revision (Galileo's famous dropped-object
experiment is an example of that; Einstein's Theory of Relativity is
another).

    In this case the talk is dealing with mystic/religious subjects
that have been around since the dawn of history, and none of them yet
have a shred of evidence for them (UNLIKE all the scientific advances
you name above) and most of them being illogical or just plain silly.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
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From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:07:19 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
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Ryk Spoor writes about Star Wars, Ben Kenobi, etc:

Ben Kenobi would not prove it to you.  You would have to prove
it to yourself.  He would only give you certain clues and hints
towards your own internal truth.

Ryk, you make me laugh: do you not see the POSSIBILITY that
the movie STAR WARS is a symbology of what may actually be going
on here at higher spiritual levels and inner planes?  There
are many vibrations of frequency:  a blaster gun (having one)
does not prove that this then would be Star Wars.  It only proves
you are in a lower vibration frequency (mainly, the earth plane,
where much solid matter exists).

Regarding defining love.  You don't.  You simply ARE IT.
When you are near a person who IS love (is BE-ING LOVE), you
will feel it/know it/sense it...through wanting to be
around this person.  Love, light, peace are radiations.
Definitions are nothing and prove nothing.  Words are just words
are just words....but you like words, and think they give meaning
or existence to that which is entirely beyond words...

Note to Tom Sullivan:
I liked your post.  Yes, the church condemned Galileo, too, didn't
they?  I think it was Einstein who said that imagination was
greater than knowledge.  This was a being (in my opinion) who tapped
into cosmic consciousness.  And Ryk, please don't ask me to definie
cosmic consciousness.

I don't use jargon or words in the sense you infer...but these
words are the best onest I have come across to describe that which
is beyond explanation.

Kathy

Reason is the ilusion of reality.  --Hazrat Inayat Khan
Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct
From: [e-mail] (Brent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:06:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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I'm enjoying this thread, but I wanted to make a few comments on:

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> It is my strong opinion that there are alien people currently living
> on Venus.

Ever been to L.A.?


> [... UFOs do things...] such as make right angle
> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law,

Well, this doesn't necessarily violate any physical laws.  If a car runs
into a very solid brick wall, it'll usually bounce off, but it basically
stops.  If the wall was angled to the right or left, the car would merely
bounce off in that direction - that's the same as UFO's making right
angle turns.  My point is that given a large enough force (wall), a body
moving in one direction can be redirected into another direction.  Spacecraft,
and I'm talking about the Shuttle and other human kinds, move about in space
using very abrupt movements.  They fire rockets in one direction to rotate
the craft in another direction, and later fire rockets (by the same amount)
in the opposite direction to stop rotating.  Both the start and the stop of
the rotation is abrupt; again, not a violation of any physical laws.

  I guess by saying something seems to "violate Newton's Second Law" adds
a little mysticism and appeal to the subject...

>     ... as well as
> "disappear" outright.

OK, I'm still working on this one... I can make money disappear real quick.

> One need only to ask the countless people who
> have seen UFO's to testify to this.

Well, sure we could ask them.  But that doesn't mean any laws were violated, it
only means that the craft abruptly turned.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brent P. Burton, N5VMG                                    Computer Sci/Physics
[e-mail]                                        Texas A&M University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp
From: [e-mail] (Ryk E Spoor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:36:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess) writes:
>Ryk Spoor writes about Star Wars, Ben Kenobi, etc:
>Ben Kenobi would not prove it to you.  You would have to prove

    On the contrary; if Ben Kenobi felt it was important for people
to believe in the Force, he would CERTAINLY prove it. He was a basically
reasonable man.

>Regarding defining love.  You don't.  You simply ARE IT.
>When you are near a person who IS love (is BE-ING LOVE), you
>will feel it/know it/sense it...through wanting to be
>around this person.  Love, light, peace are radiations.

    Nope. Being in love with someone is generally due to a state of
harmony; this person complements you (not complIments, as in praise, but
as in, helps you to do what you are already doing) without being destructive
of other things about you. It's a function of similarity, of beliefs, of
feelings, and an ability to have a tolerance of whatever differences exist
between you without either of you feeling repressed or angry.
    No mystic radiations here. Just psychology.

>greater than knowledge.  This was a being (in my opinion) who tapped
>into cosmic consciousness.  And Ryk, please don't ask me to definie
>cosmic consciousness.

    I will continue to ask you to define your buzzwords until you do
one of three things: (a) define them in a satisfactory way, (b) admit
that they are just buzzwords for something that is only an internal,
fuzzy belief of your own, or (c) give up.

>I don't use jargon or words in the sense you infer...but these
>words are the best onest I have come across to describe that which
>is beyond explanation.

    If it's beyond explanation, then you cannot possibly know anything
about it. Your mind can only hold things which are explainable/codable,
since it's just a manifestation of a (very large) finite material computer
network.

"Faith is the crutch of those who don't dare look Reality in the face and
 demand an explanation."


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!bmarcum
From: [e-mail] (Bill Marcum)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:56:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>    Isn't it scary that loads of replicas of this guy are walking the
>streets?  Shouldn't someone tell the aliens that they made a lousy choice
>of human to clone.  By the way, is a guy like this allowed to get hold of
>REAl weapons?

To answer your last question, just open any US newspaper, and be glad you
live in Finland!
>
>Jason
>[e-mail]
>
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 02:08:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <jan.688748978@afrodite> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ivan the TERRIBLE) writes:
>>Engineering is the practice of making engines
>
>engineering, from the latin....  Ingenuity,  or applied science.  Not much
>to do with engines at all really...

But look at the definition of "engine" from the time the word engineer came
into the English language.  You'll find that things like catapults were classed
as "engines" (in particular, siege engines) back then.  The older definition of
"engine" doesn't have much to do with engines as we define them today at all
really.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!bmarcum
From: [e-mail] (Bill Marcum)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.culture.electric-midget
Subject: Re: Invasion!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 02:05:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 29
Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2994 alt.culture.electric-midget:202

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission.
>
>WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!  GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS
>TO RECEIVE EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLAN-B DOCUMENTS!
>
>CEASE ALL CLONING ACTIVITIES UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
>
>INFORM ALL CLONES TO OBTAIN ORIGINAL HANDWRITING SAMPLES OF THEIR HOST HUMANS.
>
>INITIATE AUTOMATED SUBLIMINAL TRANSMISSIONS TO ALL TV AND RADIO STATIONS.
>
>ORGANIZE SEARCH GROUPS TO FIND AND TERMINATE THE EARTHING IDENTIFIED AS
>'GARY STOLLMAN'.  HE IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN IMMEDIATE AND SERIOUS THREAT TO
>OUR GOALS.  USE WHATEVER MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO REMOVE THIS MENACE FROM US,
>EVEN IF YOU MUST ELIMINATE OTHER HUMANS TO COMPLETE THE OBJECTIVE.
>
>WE MUST NOT FAIL.  OUR GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED.  THE 'GREAT ONE' EXPECTS ONLY
>SUCCESS FROM US.  HE WILL NOT ACCEPT FAILURE.  STOP AT NOTHING TO COMPLETE
>YOUR MISSION.
>
>/*/* End transmission.


My god, they've learned to spell!  If they ever learn proper use of the shift
and caps-lock keys, they'll be ready to take over the net!

Bill Marcum    "That's right, I lead a dangerous life!"
Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!kakadu9!carl
From: [e-mail] (Ivan the TERRIBLE)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 02:27:52 GMT
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Organization: Dept. Engineering Computer Resources, Melbourne Uni.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ivan the TERRIBLE) writes:
>>>Engineering is the practice of making engines
>>
>>engineering, from the latin....  Ingenuity,  or applied science.  Not much
>>to do with engines at all really...
>
>But look at the definition of "engine" from the time the word engineer came
>into the English language.  You'll find that things like catapults were classed
>as "engines" (in particular, siege engines) back then.  The older definition of
>"engine" doesn't have much to do with engines as we define them today at all
>really.

true, but engines were called engines because engineers made them!  That's
not *all* engineers do, I assure you!!  That's also why modern engines
are called engines......



 Annal  Natrach, Usthvah Spethed,                        [e-mail]
 Dochoel Dienve                                   Chem Eng, uni of Melbourne

 Merlin, where are you?  Call your dragon, to weave a mist...
Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg
From: [e-mail] (Redheaded Goddess)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 02:32:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties
Lines: 20

Ryk Spoor:  I said nothing about being "in love".  I said
when one IS the RADIATION of LOVE.  Read the sentence again,
don't change it.

About Ben Kenobi:  No, he would not PROVE it.  He would be a teacher
to those learning of truth, but they would have their own direct
experince of it.  He could not give them HIS experience.  He would
offer it only to those with an open mind, open to possibilities
they previously knew not existed.

Regarding your comments about mind:  Ryk, it is futile even
for me to ATTEMPT to discuss any of this with you, even hope
that you might comprehend what I am saying is beyond explanation.
When you make intuitive openings at other levels of your being,
you will KNOW what I am talking about.  But then again, it may
not happen for many lifetimes to come for you.

I give up.

Kathy
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is this alt.alien or alt.newage?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 91 01:30:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 9

this is alt.alien.visitors     There is a group  talk.religion.newage
if that is what you are interested in.  There is also rec.music.newage


George Newell
[e-mail]


- Cloning the world, for a better tomorrow! -